From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: R12 vs. Hot-Shot (R-414b) Question
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 02:17:07 -0400

DsrtTravlr wrote:
>
> I would like to hear if any of you have had experience with the new refrigerant
> R-414b, commonly sold as Hot-Shot, and if you have knowingly substituted it for
> R-12 in an R-12 system.  Good, bad, indifferent, I would like to hear stories.
> I am involved with refrigerants, and would like this information to deepen my
> knowledge from a user's standpoint.

Disclaimer:  I was involved with George Goble and his patented
R-406a substitute.

Hotshot is a rip-off of R-406a.  The Icor was the company selected
to package George's patented R-406a drop-in replacement
refrigerant.  They ripped off the formula and started mixing their
own.  A patent suit followed which was settled out of court.
George's patent is very broad, concerning the use of minor
constituents to transport oil (among others).  As a result of the
suit, ICOR had to reformulate Hotshot not to infringe.  The
reformulated Hotshot will NOT properly transport oil back to the
compressor. It WILL destroy an automotive compressor!  I buy a can
every so often to test it to make sure.  It works OK in stationary
system where the compressor is at the lowest point and/or there is
an oil mist separator.

George's product is still the only product on the market that will
drop in an R-12 system with no other changes.  Unfortunately, for
political reasons, EPA will not let any vendor claim that.  They
require unique fittings be installed along with a new dryer and
barrier hoses.  Barrier hose should be considered a must for either
refrigerant, as the molecules are smaller than R-12 and rapidly
diffuse through old hose.

One other consideration.  Both Hotshot and R-406a have slightly
different viscosities from R-12.  Therefore a capillary tube system
may need tuning.  This may also apply to orfice-type automotive
systems.

To learn more about George's product, go here:
http://www.autofrost.com/
To see George's personal web page with lots of neat stuff on it, go
here: http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu

George is a wild'n'crazy guy, as you'll see when you visit his
personal web page.  He'll answer any question you have about
refrigerants.

>
> Also, please include stories and information about current experiences with
> R-12, and the current going rate.  I saw a local shop here in Las Vegas the
> other day that was charging RV users $70 per pound.  What does it go for in
> your area?

Checked at the local autozone about a month ago and a 30 lb jug of
R-12 was $950.  Strangely enough, the 12 oz blowoff cans were only
about $20.  I bought an armful!

>
> Any other information or stories about the use of various refrigerants in AC
> units and various peripherals would be appreciated, too.
>
> Also, let me hear from the R-134a crowd, and how you like those new systems.
> Post here, or e-mail me.

134a works well in systems designed for it.  It is about 10% less
efficient and its enthalpy curve is a bit steeper so it requires a
larger condenser for a given capacity.  134a, or more correctly, the
lubricants involved, are death to an old system unless the
conversion is done properly.  This involves replacing all polymer
components (hoses, O-rings, etc), dryer, solvent flushing the evap,
solvent flushing the condenser if you keep it and draining and
solvent flushing the compressor.  Even a few PPM of chlorides left
in the system will destroy polyalkyl glycol (PAG) oil, the most
common type.  Compressor failure can result in days.  Another
lubricant, Polyol ester, POL, is more resistant to chlorides and is
included in these little blister-packed "conversion kits" sold at
wallyworld and the like.  Problem is, POL and mineral oil do not mix
at low temperature so compressor failure can again result if the
refrigerant piping slope isn't right.  In order to keep the same
cooling capacity as with R-12 one must install a larger condenser.
They are available from 4-seasons for many vehicles.  Finally, the
expansion valve must be tuned on cars so fitted.  Orifice tubes must
be changed on that type of system.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: R12 vs. Hot-Shot (R-414b) Question
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 17:04:08 -0400

DsrtTravlr wrote:
>
> Thank you for a very informative post.  I have marked it, and as soon as I
> rehook my printer back up, I shall take a copy to my lab teck gas chromatograph
> guy. We have been running into Hot-Shot contamination in volumes of
> refrigerants we deal with.

You won't see "Hotshot" on a gas chromatograph.  it is a blend of 4
refrigerants (R-22-50% R-124-39%, R-600a-1.5% (Isobutane),
R-142b-9.5% according to their current web page).  This is a
non-azeotrop mix so it will fractionate too.  A whole bunch of
substitutes including George's blend use one or more of these
components.  (R-22, R-146b, R-600a (propane) in the case of George's
blend.)  What you'll see are the individual constituents.  You
really can't tell what brand of refrigerant they came from,
especially since all of these fractionate through small leaks.  Once
one constituent fractionates, then the relative ratios are different
from what came from the mfr.

I've seen a huge expansion in market share of Hotshot over the last
summer.  Frankly, they've done a much better job marketing the
product than Monroe Airtech did with R-406a.  Of course, George and
his investors fought the battles with EPA and MACS to allow these
products to be marketed so there wasn't a lot of money left over.
It works well in stationary applications and is a bit cheaper on the
wholesale side so the HVAC shops in the area are now pushing it.
Hmmm. Last time I ordered a new Sanden compressor from 4-seasons it
was backordered for several weeks.  Wonder if there is a connection?
:-)

>
> Were you involved with George's afternoon of "Barbecueing With Liquid Oxygen?"

Never to that scale.  Never had access to that much LOX in one
place.  Plus I'm a bit leery.  Charcoal soaked in LOX is a very
powerful explosive.  A briquette soaked in LOX is about as energetic
as a stick of 20% dynamite.  I've done some blasting using
charcoal/LOX.  Seeing how powerful the combo is, I think I'll let
George do the honors with whole pails of LOX!

Probably my best stunt in this area involved a 16ft diameter weather
balloon filled with a mix of oxygen and acetylene and detonated.
Just for sheer shock and blast, this is by far the biggest explosion
I've ever been involved with.  Came pretty close to scaring me.

John