From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: How to know when to replace rim?
Date: 9 Sep 2000 21:08:54 GMT

Bob Qzzi? writes:

>>> I've often wondered this myself. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I can't
>>> imagine that car makers could make patently false statements about
>>> parts that effect safety without opening the door to huge
>>> liabilities.

>> Chevrolet Corvair
> Had no real safety problem

>> Suzuki Samurai
> Had no real safety problem

>> Ford Bronco II
> What was the problem?

>> Ford Pinto
> Did have a big problem

>> Ford Mustang
> What was the problem? What years?

Just statistically these "no real problem" cars were subjects of many
injury crashes, the Corvair being the worst.  Automotive people know
well what the shortcomings of such a car layout are and the flaw was
known to GM.  I don't know what makes you think there was no problem
but you are wrong in your assessment.  I have had the opportunity to
watch videos of Corvair roll-overs at 20mph on flat smooth pavement,
in which the car and tires were as recommended in the owner's manual.
These included views of the outside rear tire during the event as it
gradually tucked under and the car rolled onto its roof.

I also worked as a development engineer during that time at Porsche in
Stuttgart where an effort was underway to convince VW to put anti-roll
bars and rear axle equalizers on their cars.  This was not possible
until CEO Nordhoff retired.  GM never did it even though they knew the
results.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: How to know when to replace rim?
Date: 11 Sep 2000 17:13:57 GMT

David L. Johnson writes:

>> I cannot let this pass as a long, devoted hardtop and convertible
>> Corvair Corsa 140 owner.  When Nader's "Unsafe At Any Speed" hit
>> the bookstores in mid-1965, the 1965 model Corvairs with full
>> independent rear suspension had been on the road since September of
>> 1964.

> Of course, the book was written about the earlier, awful design.
> The book would have gone to press before the new models came out.
> They made the earlier swing-axle designs for several years, even
> knowing the danger.  The problems with those cars make the current
> Firestone problems seem minor.

>> The same swing-axle design was used in the Volkswagen until, again,
>> September of 1964.

> That's true, and the design is fatally flawed, but VW's did not have
> the safety record of Corvair, depite the large sales volume of VW by
> that time.

The difference was that the VW oversteered and spun out while the
Corvair rolled over.  Without seat belts (that weren't available yet)
a rollover practically assured fatalities.  The VW beetle was known
for going off the road backwards and being sensitive to crosswinds.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: How to know when to replace rim?
Date: 11 Sep 2000 17:25:58 GMT

A? Muzi writes:

> I cannot let this pass as a long, devoted hardtop and convertible Corvair
> Corsa 140 owner.  When Nader's "Unsafe At Any Speed" hit the bookstores in
> mid-1965, the 1965 model Corvairs with full independent rear suspension
> had been on the road since September of 1964. The same swing-axle design
> was used in the Volkswagen until, again, September of 1964.  As late as
> the mid-1980s I crewed at the SCCA nationals and Yenko Stinger Corvair
> Corsas were competitive (though not victorious) against brand-new factory
> machines with factory support. I think the original post was about
> deprecating imagery, trial by press, litigation, and badmouthing of
> product.  Certainly the early models were prone to rollover, but GM had
> done a complete redesign successfully BEFORE the smear campaign killed a
> great car.

The book was about the original cars and that GM fought the case in
court claiming there was no problem.  I was an expert witness on such
a case and can speak from experience having had a 1960 Corvair sedan
and before that driven VW Beetles, quite aside from the design work I
did at Porsche on suspension at that time.  Just the same there is no
excuse for air cooled automobile engines and engines behind the rear
axle, so your enthusiasm for these cars is misplaced.  As I have
explained, the air cooled car is a misplaced effort fueled by the lack
of a carbon water pump seal before the second world war.  Boiling cars
and radiator geysers were a result of low water, not water cooled
engines.  The low water was caused by the rope seal held in place by a
gland nut to be tightened by "water pump pliers" aka channel locks.

> If you want a good example of design failure, how about the 1964
> Renault Dauphine whose carburetor overflow ran over the exhaust
> manifold? I watched a one-week-old Renault immolate itself a half
> block from its garage!  Funny how nobody attacked this thing-they
> weren't popular enough to be a deep-pocket target.

The Dauphine was also an oversteerer that left the road backwards and
rolled over almost as well as a Corvair but having so small a market
in the USA it was never scrutinized.  It was a dog all around.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>