From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Toilet Paper!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:46:08 EST
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel

Carole Helmig wrote:
> 
> Well since we are "re-hashing" old subjects....I have one.  About a year or
> so ago, there was a thread going in toilet paper.  I now know the paper I am
> using is Y2K compliant.  But (no pun intended!) I think there must be a more
> holding tank friendly paper.  There was some of water glass test for TP.
> Can anyone tell me what (or how) to do the test.
> 
> I am watching the State of the Union address and it reminded me about the TP
> issue.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Carole in Boise

I think I'd have rather watched a test pattern than listen to slick
willie... Ahem, but I digress.

Carol, I won't presume to speak for every situation because what
works for one RV may not for another, depending on how the black
water plumbing is arranged.  For me, the same stuff we use in the
house - jumbo roll Charmin unscented - works just fine in the RV.

When I got my first RV, the dealer gave us the usual speech about
special TP.  Since they supplied us with a decent supply, I didn't
think much about it and continued to buy the stuff as we got low. 
When we bought our current RV and after reading all the sometimes
strident warnings about TP in this newsgroup, I decided to take a
closer look.  I have had this RV since the middle of October and
have used Charmin since the beginning.  The previous owner did too. 
Recently while replacing the dump valve, I stuck my lipstick camera
(a video camera about the size of a stick of lipstick - about
$150BW/$300color from Startek Inc.) up into the black water tank.  I
found it to be absolutely, perfectly free of solids of any sort. 
Being a member of the holding tank faction (vs the "it's a miniature
septic tank" faction), I use only a "harsh chemical" tank
treatment.  No bacteria, no detergent, no TP digester.

I do a couple of things that probably helps keep the tank clean. 
First, I never dump with less than 3/4 of a tank of black water.  If
there is less when it's time to dump, I'll run water until the 3/4
full light comes on.  Second, I try to drive around to slosh things
up a bit before dumping.  That means I try to dump only when I ENTER
the campground and not when leaving.  I save my final dump for
either home or the rest area if coming back through Georgia.  This
isn't a hard-and-fast rule for me and if it is inconvenient, I'll
vary the routine.

While on the subject of dumping, I'll mention how I do it at home. 
I live in an apartment in the rear of my restaurant.  We cover the
best part of a city block and the building goes sidewalk to
sidewalk.  There is no place for an outdoor sewer connection.  An
easy solution dawned on me shortly after getting our current RV.  We
have a sewer manhole in the center of the alley right outside our
door.  I bought two of those 45 degree clear RV elbows and connected
them together to make a 90 degree elbow.  I just pull the RV so that
the black water outlet is over the manhole, lift the lid with a pair
of vice grips, attach the elbow and dump.  Fast, neat and no hose to
muck with.

If anyone's going to do this, make damn sure you get a sewer
manhole.  Nothing pisses the phone guys off more than to have to
crawl down into an underground cable vault that has been decorated
with toilet paper and brown pearls!  And nothing pisses the RV owner
off more than to dump on some not-quite-waterproof underground high
voltage cables and get blown off the manhole!

(yeah, I know, somewhere it's probably illegal - It's not here, so
anyone who wants to play net.cop - bite me!)

From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Toilet Paper!!!
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:26:21 EST
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel

George Lowry wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:47:18 -0500, Neon John
> <johngdNOSPAM@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> >Being a member of the holding tank faction (vs the "it's a miniature
> >septic tank" faction), I use only a "harsh chemical" tank
> >treatment.  No bacteria, no detergent, no TP digester.
> 
> Obviously you are one of those that are contributing to the closure of
> the dump sites at rest areas.   You should know better, but since you
> obviously don't, most, if not all rest areas utilize a septic system
> for waste disposal. Your dumping of your harsh chemicals are not
> helping but are damaging the septic system.  As more people like you
> damage the septic system, the folks that are footing the bill finally
> get tired of it and solve their problem by closing the dump station.
> 
> We really need more people like that!!!!!.

*Sigh*  Again we whip this dead dog.  I'd pull a GBinNC and suggest
perhaps you go to deja and revisit this subject which was recently
discussed but I imagine that would be difficult for you.  With a
tone like that, George, I can imagine grappling with complex ideas
and logic to be a bit tough so instead, I'll break this down for you
into little bitty chunks.

* The label on the chemicals says it's safe for septic systems.
* Experience shows that it is safe for septic systems.
* Some simple math involving nothing more complicated than addition,
subtraction, multiplication and division to compute the dilution
ratio between what comes from a holding tank and what comes out of
the rest area will demonstrate that it is safe.
* Common sense says it is safe in the concentration used.
* The state of Tn (I asked) says it is safe.
* Finally, around here, septic tanks are NOT used at rest areas. 
Only the egregiously uninformed would think a simple septic tank
could handle the load.  Mechanically aerated aerobic treatment
plants, miniature versions of what are used at central treatment
plants are used instead.

When I called the state awhile back to ask why they didn't replace
the dump station in the nearby rest area when they remodeled it, not
a word was said about holding tank chemicals.  A LOT was said about
people - perhaps people like you, George - who seemed to think that
the use of a hose at the dump station is optional.  Seems that they
decided that the expense of repeatedly cleaning up after clods was
higher than it was worth.

You too can experience this eye-opening revelation.  Check your
phone book for the blue pages and give a tingaling to the state DOT
office.  If DOT isn't responsible, they'll be able to vector you to
the agency who is.  You might also want to check with your local
agricultural extension agent.  He'll be able to give you expert
advice regarding septic tanks and can even use single syllable words
if necessary.

> >
> >While on the subject of dumping, I'll mention how I do it at home.
> >I live in an apartment in the rear of my restaurant.  We cover the
> >best part of a city block and the building goes sidewalk to
> >sidewalk.  There is no place for an outdoor sewer connection.  An
> >easy solution dawned on me shortly after getting our current RV.  We
> >have a sewer manhole in the center of the alley right outside our
> >door.  I bought two of those 45 degree clear RV elbows and connected
> >them together to make a 90 degree elbow.  I just pull the RV so that
> >the black water outlet is over the manhole, lift the lid with a pair
> >of vice grips, attach the elbow and dump.  Fast, neat and no hose to
> >muck with.
> 
> Are you certain that you are dumping into a Sanitary sewer or into a
> Storm sewer.  Most of the storm sewers are located in the center of
> the alleys and if you are dumping into such a sewer, you are dumping
> your raw sewage into a system that is untreated.   I suggest you
> review your practices. Unless you really don't care about anybody else
> than yourself..

I don't know, George. You have all the answers so you tell me.  Is
it a sewer? This is the manhole from which we fed the camera up my
sewers to map the defects in the piping under my slab before digging
it up.  And this is the hole where the city recently piped in smoke
to try and find paths through which stormwater might be getting into
the sanitary sewer.  And this is the manhole where the contractors
recently sent their robot cleaning/video machine to clean and map
the feeder going to the trunk line.  And it seems to be the place
where when a toilet in the restaurant is flushed, the "stuff" comes
out.  So you tell me - is that a sewer?

Did you REALLy think I'd be stupid enough to dump in a storm sewer
or were you just desparate to see your words in print?  Is that all
the contribution you can make to this group?  Nah, it's just the
scream of a very small and insignificant person shouting "notice me,
notice me".  Or else a bacteria/enzyme hawker who's trying to hide
his real motives.

I can almost understand why the bozo brigade is as bitter as they
are.  A year of enduring pinheads like George and I'd probably be
the same way.  Sure makes me regret trying to make a positive
contribution to this group.  I imagine those contributions will
become much less frequent. I learned most of what I know through the
school of hard knocks.  perhaps it's time to let the Georges of the
world do the same.

To everyone except George, I appologize for the tone of this post. 
Sometimes the old mental blackwater tank fills with BS to the point
where a dump is necessary.  

John