From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Important Question - Seeking advice
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 06:59:05 EDT
Newsgroups: rec.food.restaurants

John Smotman wrote:
> 
> I am starting my own business where I will be shipping perishable foods. I
> am wondering where the best place would be for me to obtain shipping boxes
> that are insulated with a styrofoam liner to keep the product cold. I am
> also looking to purchase gel packs. If anyone could respond here, or better
> yet, email me, I would appreciate it greatly. My business will be located in
> Rhode Island, so a supplier near that area would be even better than having
> the materials shipped long-distance. Thanks in advance.

Check out Lifoam. headquarters in Baltimore.  Factory in Rome, Ga
among other places.  They have factories near major markets because
it costs so much to ship air.  HQ phone number is 410 889 1023. 
They have the best prices we've found.  The key to keeping the cost
down is picking the foam up at the factory.  We haul a trailer full
from Rome a couple times a year.  Shipping would literally cost more
than the foam.

We ship BBQ and related products.  (we don't advertise - this is a
service to our regular customers.)  You'll find that ice packs won't
do the job.  You have two choices.  One is dry ice and the other is
ultra-freezing.  You can buy dry ice in bulk and store it for weeks
in ultra-insulated foam boxes.  The problem with dry ice is you'll
pay hazardous material shipping surcharges plus the labeling
requirements are rather stringent.  Ultra-freezing is freezing the
product to -150 deg or better and then insulating it sufficiently to
stay frozen for the overnight shipment. There are ultra-freezers
available.  Liquid nitrogen is another alternative.  I built a
cascade freezer system for our relatively small operation.  I've
found this to work well enough that I can get away with 2nd day air.

You might also want to look at foam-in-place shipping foam.  I've
done some instrumented shipping using this technology and have found
it to out-perform styrofoam shipping containers at a fraction of the
cost.  Small gravity fed foam machines start in the $600 range.

You MUST include safety tattletales in your package in contact with
the food.  These cost less than a dime and change colors when the
temperature (or even better the time-temperature envelope) rises to
an unsafe level.  This tells the customer not to eat food that may
have warmed up in shipment.  FDA is going to require this, probably
in 2002.  3M, among others, makes the tattletales.

Finally you must test.  Onset Systems (on the net) makes a little
temperature data logger about the size of box of matches.  This tiny
little data logger can record temperatures for days, is interrogated
by a PC and only costs a touch over $100.  I use these things
extensively, not only for testing my shipping procedures but also
inside catering containers. It's nice to be able to PROVE that the
food remained at safe temperatures until custody was transfered to
the customer. (And by noting when the temperature spike from opening
the container occured, I can tell if my delivery people are screwing
off :-) For evaluating your shipping procedures and materials, the
data logger not only tells you that something doesn't work, it tells
you WHEN it failed, or if it worked, how much safety margin you
have.  Remember when you're evaluating your shipping process that
your package may sit on the customer's stoop for the better part of
the day.

Last thoughts on the subject - I have my very serious doubts about
being able to start a mail order food service from scratch without
an established restaurant reputation and cash flow. In my segment,
the successful shippers such as Corky's FIRST had a very successful
restaurant and only later branched out into mail order. Everything
conspires against startups - purveyers save their highest prices for
startups, you have no reputation, advertising is expensive and
worst, the shipping companies nail you to the wall until you reach a
certain threshold (and then they practically give the shipping
away!)  Hope you have deep pockets!!!

John

From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: packaging question
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 23:49:35 EDT
Newsgroups: rec.food.restaurants

Sam Milanos wrote:
> 
> First off, frozen food usually gets to stores and restaurants via a
> refrigerated truck.  If this is what you are going to do, you are going to
> need a distribution hub in every region you plan to ship to.  If you will be
> using any air shipping (which is impractical) there are limits to the amount
> of Dry Ice you can use.  Mind you, the package must be CLEARLY marked that
> it contains Dry Ice if it is to be shipped by air.
> 
> Second, your endeavors (despite how good your intentions are) are somewhat
> idiotic!  You see, there are these places called SUPERMARKETS!!!  At these
> places they sell FROZEN FOOD!!!  People don't want to wait for the mail
> before they eat.  Get a clue!!!  Neither I, nor anyone else want frozen food
> rotting in the mailbox.  Contact a merchandising company and get the product
> on the shelf!!!  Quit using FedEx to peddle your meat!!!

Uh, pardon me, sir.  You're ignorance is showing.  If you want to
tuck your ignorance back in, perhaps you'd take a look at Corky's
BBQ, Omaha Steaks, Legal Seafood and any number of other companies
who are doing quite nicely with mail order frozen gourmet food.

To the original question.  Most companies I'm familiar with use dry
ice.  True, the package has to be labeled but that's simply a matter
of affixing a label.  If you want to go that route, contact FEDEX. 
They're quite experienced at shipping frozen food.  There are a
number of companies that sell styrofoam shippers designed for
mailorder shipping.  Your client should already know about these but
if he doesn't, have him check any of the major trade pubs - these
containers are widely advertised.

A second option is to  ultra-freeze.  This involves freezing the
product to 150-200 deg below zero, insulating well and shipping. 
This is the technique I use when I ship BBQ.  The standard styrofoam
containers are a bit thin for this application.  I've had good luck
both with styrofoam peanuts and foam-in-place insulation.  You'll
need to instrument some test shipments to determine the cold reserve
available for your portion size.  If there is inadequate cold
reserve, one can insert the cryropacked product into a larger bag
filled with water and the whole assembly frozen.  Even better, if
the product will withstand the added expense, is a water/glycerine
overlayer.  This mixture thaws at a low enough temperature to keep
the product fully frozen until all the glycerine ice melts.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural,sci.energy,misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair,
	misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: Shipping BBQ (was e: Home Heating Options for Rural Midwest 
	Residents?)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 04:51:29 -0400
Message-ID: <lc1li1pgnorffqoolb8497q2te516iq56a@4ax.com>

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 05:19:33 GMT, Logan Shaw
>
>By the way, the people at airribs.com use gel packs and two-day
>shipping, so unless they're screwing it up badly[1], apparently
>it's possible to do it without dry ice.
>
>   - Logan
>
>[1]  The restaurant behind that, The County Line, is local to
>      where I live.  Their barbecue isn't exactly my favorite,
>      although it's not bad, but they do seem pretty professional
>      and seems to do a good job with stuff generally.

I got pretty seriously interested in mailorder/internet BBQ sales a
few years ago.  I packaged up some meat with little thermal data
loggers (Onset Hobo) in the middle and sent it to friends around the
country using various refrigeration methods.  I got them to send the
dataloggers back to me.  I didn't like the data I collected.  I could
make it with 2nd day air in the winter but not in the summer, at least
not with the margin I wanted to see to accommodate a package sitting
in a receiving department or on someone's porch half a day.

The one thing I didn't test which is on the agenda is a combination of
brine ice packs and foamed-in-place insulation.  I have the equipment
to make the ice packs so that's not a problem.  I need to a) gain
access to FIP equipment and b) a round tuit.  A) is now not a problem
but b) is....

I recently got some literature from 3M about a new time-at-temperature
disposable tattletail that is designed to degrade and tattle at about
the same rate as food does.  That might be the margin of safety I need
if it works.  I could label the box for the customer to toss the
product and get credit if the tattletail has fired when he opens it.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid but knock on wood, in 10 years I've yet to
make anyone sick.  I like it that way.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural,sci.energy,misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair,
	misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: Re: Shipping BBQ (was e: Home Heating Options for Rural Midwest 
	Residents?)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:26:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1vcmi118hhpbbgob7ngr2a3l0gpck8uobo@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:21:03 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net>
wrote:


>> The one thing I didn't test which is on the agenda is a combination of
>> brine ice packs and foamed-in-place insulation.  I have the equipment
>> to make the ice packs so that's not a problem.  I need to a) gain
>> access to FIP equipment and b) a round tuit.  A) is now not a problem
>> but b) is....
>
>What did you use for a shipping container?  Obviously, the thicker the
>better. FIP is not the best isnulating material. I'd use a moded foam box.
>The seafood industry and meat industry aas well as phareceuticals use them
>all the time.

Obviously I gave the commercially available shipping containers a try
first.  Fine for overnight.  Not fine for 2+ day delivery.  Other
things I've tested include thick packaging in styro peanuts (one of
the best), multiple layers of rigid styro foam (decent), shredded
newspaper (fair), even fiberglass batting (fair).

FIP isn't all the same.  FIP made specifically for casting insulation
in place is available with disposable metering units.  I used one of
those kits when I built my walk-in freezer.  My freezer performs
better than the industry standard 4" thick foam panels on a watts
consumed per sq ft of external surface area so I think this has
promise.

I did do a test with the Great Foam stuff that you can buy at the
Hardware store.  I heat sealed about 2 lbs of water in a poly bag and
the Hobo in another, froze both to -20F and foamed them in place
inside a 24" cube cardboard container using Great Stuff.  I didn't
ship this one but instead left it in my catering truck for two days
which should approximate 2nd day service.  The numbers there looked
good but of course, buying the stuff at retail, the foam was far too
expensive to use in production.

I have some other ideas to try, some of which might be patentable so I
need to test and investigate the patent before I discuss them.  One
thing I want to try is packing the stuff, then letting it cold soak in
my -20F walk-in for a day to thoroughly chill the bulk of the
insulation.

This thread is spurring my interest again.  There may be John G's bbq
on the web yet :-)

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural,sci.energy,misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair,
	misc.consumers.frugal-living
Subject: Re: Shipping BBQ (was e: Home Heating Options for Rural Midwest 
	Residents?)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:34:13 -0400
Message-ID: <o4emi15c77a0h09c71u515dfkh17ou9skf@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:09:23 -0400, George <george@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>
>>
>> I recently got some literature from 3M about a new time-at-temperature
>> disposable tattletail that is designed to degrade and tattle at about
>> the same rate as food does.  That might be the margin of safety I need
>> if it works.  I could label the box for the customer to toss the
>> product and get credit if the tattletail has fired when he opens it.
>
>
>Do that and the same people who buy tools at big box stores and take
>them back after doing their project will also be eating free BBQ...

Sure, there are always some scumbags to deal with but in the 10 years
I've been in business, I have to say that they've been very few and
far between.  That same type of person also goes to restaurants and
tries to get free food by complaining after the meal is finished. I've
had only a little of that.  I bend over backwards to please but if the
person has finished the meal, cleaned his (usually a man) plate and
then complains, unless he's a regular, he has to go away unfulfilled.

On a relates subject, I get fewer than 5 bad checks a year.  The
people who DO write me bad checks know they're doing so and usually
have warrants out all over town.  With no more bad checks than that, I
don't ask for ID or otherwise hassle my customers.  If I get one, I
send out a postcard as notice and then take out a warrant to give 'em
a little surprise the next time they're stopped for speeding :-)
Otherwise I don't worry about it.

I have a theory that this kind of problem hinges on how you treat
customers.  I treat mine like family.  I think that goes a long way
toward avoiding all sorts of problems.

John