From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: New Magnum "Mauser" Actions
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:33:58 GMT

Gary Coffman wrote:

> But I believe the record for most elephants killed in a day is still
> held by a ivory hunter (whose name escapes me at the moment) who used a
> 7mm Mauser for all his kills. Elephants aren't hard to kill, if you
> place the shot properly.

By "Kilimanjaro" Bell who used a Mauser actioned Rigby 275 Express  (7 x 57
Mauser) That rifle is (or was) in Rigby's London Showroom and I have handled
it!!

But you failed to tell the whole story Gary...

In Bell's day, elephant still roamed open grass lands, in huge numbers, unafraid
of distant hunters.  Bell portered with him, a collapsible, elevated, shooting
stand.  High enough so that he could see over the tall elephant grass,  he could
take carefully aimed shots from far enough away not to spook the herd..somewhat
like the old buffalo hunters did in N America.

He was probably one of the finest rifle shots that EVER lived..with an intimate
knowledge of elephant anatomy that enabled him to hit the brain from whatever
angle he shot.

Those conditions are NOT found now!!  Elephant are much warier and have taken to
thick cover.  The ones left are generally of a larger type than the plains
elephant he hunted then.

It is on record that, quite literally, SCORES of intrepid (Stupid) hunters have
been killed by elephant, while trying to emulate Bell's feats.  It STILL happens
on an almost annual basis.

The 7mm, 303 British, 30-06..even the 375 H&H Magnum are NOT gun enough to go
into bush after elephant, rhino, hippo or Cape Buffalo.  Too many men have been
killed trying to prove otherwise!

Some Professional Hunters and Game Control Officers feel that the .577 Nitro
Express is barely adequate for today's conditions.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: New Magnum "Mauser" Actions
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:14:58 GMT

The point about the real Heavies...577 .600 and .700 is that they DO have a
large margin for error.  An elephants brain is quite small..and surrounded by a
massive honeycombed skull.  A small caliber "near miss" will NOT stop a
charge..or a terrified wounded animal heading for the next county.  If the Brain
is missed it will likely give the pachyderm a monsterous headache for a couple
of days and full recovery is the norm.
For a hunter to find small bore bullets in an elephants head is not uncommon.

On the other hand, any one of the above Big Bores will knock an elephant cold
for at least 20 minutes (.577) to 35 minutes (.700) even if it misses the
brain.   They have tremendous penetration and can reach the brain with a shot
from any angle..even ranging forward from a rump shot on a fleeing beast..to
reach the brain.  They have the "Anchoring" or Knock-Down" power that smaller
bores just don't have.

Once down for the count, the elephant can be given a "Coup de Grace" at leisure
if the brain shot was missed.

On Cape Buffalo..a similar situation arises...the massive horn boss and frontal
plate of the skull will stop a lesser round dead..breaking up even the toughest
steel jacketed solids.  A "Dead Stop" shot is required, close up, as many shots
are, given the Buffs propensity for actively stalking and ambushing his
protaganist.

Much as the hunters, professional and amateur alike, love the Double Rifle, the
cost and availability rules it out for all but the wealthy.
A utilitarian grade English Double might start at the $15000.00 level and go on
up to six figures!..even if you could find one and afford it..the thought of
that getting stomped on is enough to pale even wealthy men!

Quite apart from that, Americans do not, generally take to the double rifle, and
its "shotgun" handling and technique...They are more accustomed to and more
comfortable..Therefore, more ACCURATE with Bolt Action Rifles.  And, as you
point out, the client has to be able to shoot straight with his rifle.

I intend to develop this action and a companion, new, caliber, the 577/550 3
1/4" Nitro Express..which hopefully, with a little less recoil will develop the
same penetration and almost the same knock-down power as the .577  3" NE..in a
round designed for a bolt action magazine rifle.

There is a good chance that this could also become popular as a .495 caliber,
long range, caliber...Especially if the Antis manage to ban the 50 BMG and any
derivatives there-of.

But then, its just a dream!!

teenut



Gary Coffman wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:33:58 GMT, Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Gary Coffman wrote:
> >
> >> But I believe the record for most elephants killed in a day is still
> >> held by a ivory hunter (whose name escapes me at the moment) who used
> >> a 7mm Mauser for all his kills. Elephants aren't hard to kill, if you
> >> place the shot properly.
> >
> >By "Kilimanjaro" Bell who used a Mauser actioned Rigby 275 Express  (7 x 57
> >Mauser) That rifle is (or was) in Rigby's London Showroom and I have handled
> >it!!
>
> That's the fellow.
>
> >But you failed to tell the whole story Gary...
> >
> >In Bell's day, elephant still roamed open grass lands, in huge numbers,
> >unafraid of distant hunters.  Bell portered with him, a collapsible,
> >elevated, shooting stand.  High enough so that he could see over the
> >tall elephant grass, he could take carefully aimed shots from far
> >enough away not to spook the herd..somewhat like the old buffalo
> >hunters did in N America.
>
> Right. In more recent times, shooting platforms on top of vehicles were
> used. (In India, the Raj hunted from elephant back, automatically giving
> them the proper vantage, and a bit safer position if the game didn't decide
> to cooperate.) Today's conditions are a bit different.
>
> >He was probably one of the finest rifle shots that EVER lived..with an
> >intimate knowledge of elephant anatomy that enabled him to hit the
> >brain from whatever angle he shot.
>
> Every *good* hunter should have a thorough knowledge of the ballistics of his
> chosen weapon, know his capabilities with it (and stay within them), and know
> the anatomy of his quarry. Unfortunately a lot of hunters don't, and even more
> unfortunately many of them think that they can make up for that lack by using
> a bigger gun. But a poorly placed shot is still a poor shot, and won't immediately
> drop the animal even if it is made with a 600 Nitro.
>
> >Those conditions a NOT found now!!  Elephant are much warier and have
> >taken to thick cover.  The ones left are generally of a larger type
> >than the plains elephant he hunted then.
> >
> >It is on record that, quite literally, SCORES of intrepid (Stupid)
> >hunters have been killed by elephant, while trying to emulate Bell's
> >feats.  It STILL happens on an almost annual basis.
>
> Yeah, that's why most African countries require that a professional
> hunter must guide the tyros, and act as backup. It is for their own
> protection (as well as for the protection of the game). From the point
> of view of the administrations, the occasional dead hunter isn't a bad
> thing. It enhances the mystique of hunting dangerous game. But a wounded
> animal can be a serious problem. It puts the native population at risk
> (which is no longer politically palatable).
>
> >The 7mm, 303 British, 30-06..even the 375 H&H Magnum are NOT gun enough
> >to go into bush after elephant, rhino, hippo or Cape Buffalo.  Too many
> >men have been killed trying to prove otherwise!
> >
> >Some Professional Hunters and Game Control Officers feel that the .577 Nitro
> >Express is barely adequate for today's conditions.
>
> A higher energy cartridge does give one a *little* more margin in shot
> placement because the zone of massive tissue damage is a bit bigger (not
> much bigger, however).  The more important quality is the ability to
> penetrate deeper if the shot must be made at an unfavorable angle. But
> you do have to be good enough to place the shot well regardless of
> caliber. My lament is that too few tyros are willing to shoot the big
> boomers enough to be able to consistently do that.
> 
> I love to shoot the big guns (I consider the .375 H&H a fun plinker).
> But even I don't relish the punishment that the really large calibers
> hand out. A few shots with my friend's 600 Nitro double rifle leaves me
> fairly badly bruised, and I need a couple of weeks before I'm ready to
> shoot well again.  So I'll never have the accuracy and consistency with
> it that I achieve with the .375 and smaller calibers that I do shoot
> frequently.
> 
> OTOH I love shooting the Barrett "light" .50. The recoil from it doesn't
> bruise. Different gun design, of course, it pushes rather than pounds.
> Unfortunately, I don't think it is on the approved list in several
> African countries. Incidently, that's why most of the African calibers
> are odd balls. Weapons (and more importantly, ammo) considered suitable
> for warfare were prohibited to be brought into many of these countries.
> (Fear of them falling into the wrong hands.)
> 
> I know you want to make traditional rifles, and I wish you well in the
> endeavor, but I'd really like to see a modern gas buffered recoil design
> that lets one shoot often enough to be good without the bruising that
> the traditional designs deliver.
>
> Gary
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