From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Home heating oil price?
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:44:16 -0400
Message-ID: <f9pbb49mkde7nsgavtv8oq6tno06976t5f@4ax.com>

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:13:43 -0700, "Matthew Beasley" <nobody@spam.com> wrote:

>
>"Steve IA" <new@xnews.netl> wrote in message
>news:Xns9B06393435960newxnewsnet@194.177.96.78...
>
>> Depending on your electrical rate, looks like it might be cheaper to use
>> electric space heaters over propane. YMMV.
>>
>
>I'm sure that there are a whole lot of electric utility employees who sure
>hope that not that many people figure out that electric is cheaper than oil
>or propane right now.  China can build space heaters faster than we can
>build power plants, and it sure could cause a lot of problems this winter.

Should be interesting if this is a cold winter.  It was far cheaper here last
year to use my heat pump to back up the wood stove than it was propane.
Propane's up a third from last year.  We didn't have any winter last year to
speak of so it didn't matter that much but it sure would if we have a normal
one this year.

Anyone considering doing much heat with electricity should take a look at the
new crop of chicom made mini-split heat pumps.  SEER 16 and the ability to
work down to single digit temperatures are slick features.  Here, for
instance.

http://www.acfactoryoutlet.com/home.asp?cat=102

I'm giving serious thought to the 9Kbtu unit for heating and cooling only my
bedroom.  According to my calculations, it would pay for itself in about 3
years.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Home heating oil price?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:19:58 -0400
Message-ID: <nmbdb4d6hcohfu3anjhr0vpvibqoliqtbp@4ax.com>

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:14:35 -0700, Kelly <kellyjones1@gmail.com> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>
>> http://www.acfactoryoutlet.com/home.asp?cat=102
>>
>> I'm giving serious thought to the 9Kbtu unit for heating and cooling
>> only my bedroom.  According to my calculations, it would pay for
>> itself in about 3 years.
>
>I use oil (along with a bunch of wood) for heat, and definitely can't
>afford it anymore.  I got a quote for a 5-ton heat pump, and it came in
>around 15K!  Payback on that is pretty long, since so much of my heat
>comes from wood.
>
>If you get one of these, be sure and report back.

I have a lot of experience installing mini-splits.  I've just never owned one
myself.  It should be an excellent product for the money.  It uses a Sanyo
inverter compressor and controller.  Both the tiny condensing unit outside and
the evaporator/air handler on the inside normally hang on the wall.  You can
download the installation and owner's manual from the site and see what is
involved.

The mini-split concept came out of Japan where space is extremely precious, as
is electricity.  As such, the traditional big US HVAC companies aren't players
in the market.  Even the Japanese name brands are now made in China.  I bet
that this product is actually a Japanese name brand that the chicom factory
operator decided to label as his own.  They do that a lot.

Installation involves only mounting the hangars to the wall and drilling one
hole through the wall.  All the refrigerant lines and wiring, pre-bounded into
one cable-looking affair, pass through that hole.  You can do it all yourself
with ordinary hand tools, except for charging it with refrigerant.  That you'd
hire out unless you happen to do refrigeration and have the tools.  I wouldn't
expect to pay more than $100 to have an existing system purged and charged.

Mini-splits are VERY popular in old and especially historic structures because
no modifications have to be done to the structure other than that one hole.
Plus the units are tiny and unobtrusive.  The Campbell Center for Arts and
Crafts in Brasstown Bald, NC, for example, uses them in the historic stone
buildings that make up the school.  Some artsy-fartsy type painted a stone
pattern on the condensing units that matches the stone so well that you have
to actually be looking for the things to see them.

Another benefit is that they are whisper-quiet.  Central systems, especially
when back-fitted to buildings not designed for central HVAC tend to be noisy
since smaller than optimum ducts often have to be used.  I'm quite annoyed
with rushing air noise so I REALLY like the gentle hum of the typical
mini-split.

As a retired, part time HVAC-handyman type, I've come to the conclusion that
traditional central units are dinosaurs, going through their dying quivers.
High energy costs and better alternatives are killing the central concept, at
least for ordinary working folks' houses.

It simply makes no economic sense to heat or air condition an entire building
when only a few rooms at a time are used.  Zoning is one attempt to reduce the
operating cost but throttling back one big unit isn't nearly as efficient as
having a separate small unit for each zone (room or adjacent rooms).

The variable speed, variable capacity units like the ones I referenced are of
particular interest.  It can have enough reserve capacity to quickly pull down
a room to a comfortable temperature (or push it up in the winter) when one
enters then room and then slow down and operate at maximum efficiency while
maintaining the temperature, running just fast enough to do the job.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: inverter heat pumps, was: standby gnerators.
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:42:20 -0400
Message-ID: <7bmrc4dg7ddkkrj6ncd9sp9aj34n7htn58@4ax.com>

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:38:29 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com>
wrote:

>In <vnloc4lqksss0uuhos5hgaas3v0nghieje@4ax.com> Neon John <no@never.com> writes:
>
>>Instead of air conditioning the whole house, I'm going to condition just one
>>"comfort room", most likely my bedroom/office.  I'm going to install a >14
>>SEER variable speed inverter mini-split heat pump for that room.  This heat
>>pump will be powered directly from an inverter tied to the main UPS's 24 volt
>>battery bank.  Another inverter will power the well pump.
>
>The current leader in mainstream manufacturers appears
>to be a _23_ SEER Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim". It's a new
>unit, and only 9K BTU, but I'd guess they'll be adding
>a few more models soon.
>
>I still haven't been able to find it on Mitsubishi's online
>catalog, but here's a distributer:
>
>http://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-Mr-Slim-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pumps-p/11975.htm

Damn!  That certainly requires a second look.  I haven't been able to get that
page to load.  What kind of price on the 9K?

John

From: danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: inverter heat pumps, was: standby gnerators.
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 03:46:43 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <gaklr3$kdo$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <7bmrc4dg7ddkkrj6ncd9sp9aj34n7htn58@4ax.com> Neon John <no@never.com> writes:
>>
>>http://www.acwholesalers.com/Mitsubishi-Mr-Slim-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pumps-p/11975.htm

>Damn!  That certainly requires a second look.  I haven't been able to get that
>page to load.  What kind of price on the 9K?

I just re-loaded it, so it looks like the url is ok..

Anyway, in pricing from them:

	List Price: $2,051.00
	Our Price: $1,539.00

Note though that there are plenty of "gotchas" you have
to add in for the inverter models. I'd guess, just from
a very quick glance, that these would add about $300 to
the cost.

(the biggest single outlay is for the "lineset", namely
the refrigerant piping).


--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
		     dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]