From: Johnny <nwaero@northwest-aero.com>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Ivo Prop question.
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:51:43 -0800

DAlexan424 wrote:

> No thanks. Besides, I've seen Ivo during one of his talks. The man came to one
> of our Velocity get togethers in Lincoln, Ca. dressed in tie-dyes and khakies.
> Doesn't EVEN come close to instilling confidence in clients.

That's too bad. I sure hope the rest of your group isn't so hung up on
dress code. Would you get more of a feeling of confidence if the guy
faked it and wore a phony set of clothes that looked more like what you
wear?

Personally I appreciate when people aren't trying to fake me out with a
facade of clothing or trying to impress me with stuff that has nothing
to do with what they are good at. My favorite clothing choice for giving
a talk is a pair of solid black coveralls, preferably with a few metal
chips stuck in the seams, complete with psychedelic logo embroidered on
the back. Even better yet if there is a fresh ketchup stain on there
from the double whopper w/cheese I had on the way from the shop to the
talk. And it's honest. That outfit is the real me. For some reason, it
scares the hell out of some of the group.

This is intentional. After all, in this industry you don't want just
everyone as a customer... really you don't! Interestingly enough, it
seems the ones that have trouble getting past the clothes are the same
ones that want some sort of a warranty or guaranteed TBO. They can't
appreciate my honesty when I tell them that no one really knows what the
average TBO of one of my auto conversions is yet. Ivo's tie-dyes are a
great screening device. He's honest enough to tell you that his props
are experimental and developmental... just like the aircraft you might
be constructing.

As for the props themselves, I sell quite a few of them. The test club I
try to beat to death on my test stand is an Ivo. They are not the best
prop in the world. I think MT has that sewn up pretty well. Of course,
one is $900 and the other is $12,000 (and up). You get what you pay for.
The Ivo is an affordable solution for PSRU engines in the higher power
ranges. I don't think I'd run one direct drive. Your mileage may vary.

There are a couple tricks that will help with the Ivo however. BTW, none
of this is from Ivo... it's strictly my own gibberish, and remember, you
got it for free.

Mark the front and rear plates and number the blades. Always install it
with the relationship between the plates and the blades the same way as
the first time you assembled it. The reasoning behind this is that this
way the knurl will fall into the same marks it left in the blades
originally. The reason for retorquing is not to crush the end of the
blades, but to seat the knurl into the surface of the composite surface.
The blades will "work" a little and the knurl will make it's mark on the
surface of the blade. Once there is a "female" imprint of the knurl in
the blade, it shouldn't change anymore. As for retorquing being a pain
in the ass, all props that don't have a solid metal hub need to be
retorqued periodically, until they don't retorque anymore. Wood props
take a while to shut-up too. Same for composite over wood.

As for the tape, it does do a pretty good job of indicating movement. I
have a couple customers that broke their tape until they went to the
knurled plates. After that, no more broken tape.

Lastly, as with any assembled prop, or any prop for that matter, it's
best to do a dynamic balance job of the whole assembly as installed in
the aircraft, with the spinner and all if you can. This can quell
vibrations and loads that might excite a problem over time. This is also
another reason to mark and number the assembly.

I have beat and beat on my test club Ivo, and put it together and taken
it apart more times than I can count in the course of installing it on
many different engines.....it still has all it's blades. I have another
one slated for installation on the -4. I don't have any reason to
believe it will behave any differently.

-j- (only time will tell, that's why it's called "experimental")

From: dalexan424@aol.com (DAlexan424)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Ivo Prop question.
Date: 12 Mar 1999 14:36:45 GMT

>That's too bad. I sure hope the rest of your group isn't so hung up on
>dress code. Would you get more of a feeling of confidence if the guy
>faked it and wore a phony set of clothes that looked more like what you
>wear?

Yeah, honestly it would. You need to know that his visit was just after the one
Velocity went down. Lot's of issues needed to be resolved and showing up
dressed as he did, while proudly exhibiting the fact that he was a free spirit,
did nothing to promote a feeling of confidence to many who attended. His
"display" of his airmanship while landing his helicopter also went along way to
sealing his "doom". First impressions DO mean a lot to many (who happen to have
money in their pockets).

>Personally I appreciate when people aren't trying to fake me out with a
>facade of clothing or trying to impress me with stuff that has nothing
>to do with what they are good at. My favorite clothing choice for giving
>a talk is a pair of solid black coveralls, preferably with a few metal
>chips stuck in the seams, complete with psychedelic logo embroidered on
>the back. Even better yet if there is a fresh ketchup stain on there
>from the double whopper w/cheese I had on the way from the shop to >the talk.
And it's honest. That outfit is the real me. For some reason, it
>scares the hell out of some of the group.

I guess you keep all the microbuses running in your commune. One of the
problems with stereotypes is that quite often, many are rooted in experience,
old wives tales and etc. Many professional companies have dress codes that may
seem to be repressive to some, that have shown over the course of time prove to
be effective establishing the outward arrearance of respect, professionalism,
courtesy and the like ON INITIAL MEETING. The was Ivo's first meeting with our
group, occuring just after a plane went down in which one of his products may
have had a significant role in the accident. I would think the man would have
shown more sense. Just by showing up the way he did eliminated me from taking
this man with more than a grain of salt for the immediate future. All because
he wanted to establish in everyones mind that f he was a free thinker. Mission
accomplished.

>This is intentional. After all, in this industry you don't want just
>everyone as a customer... really you don't!

Wouldn't it be better if you were APPROACHED by all and then you were able to
weed out which people you wanted to serve? By showing up as he did, Ivo
eliminated fully 3/4 of any possible future contact. So you have a point here.
You and Ivo can use it to buy your last cup of coffee on your way to the poor
house when you discover how many people have been alienated by your dress and
demeanor.

> Interestingly enough, it seems the ones that have trouble getting past the
>clothes are the same ones that want some sort of a warranty or >guaranteed
TBO. They can't appreciate my honesty when I tell them that >no one really
knows what the average TBO of one of my auto >conversions is yet. Ivo's
tie-dyes are a great screening device. He's >honest enough to tell you that his
props are experimental and >developmental... just like the aircraft you might
be constructing.

Yes, I can see how one free spirit may not be interested in bothering another
to establish some type of warranty. Using the old "No one really knows what the
TBO is" can either show some that your product is SOOO good, that no one has
ever worn one out, or that you won't stand behind your product with even a
rudimentary warranty, understanding that many would like (no matter how
irrational and closed minded that we may be) some assurance that you will stand
for your product. Husksters quite often rely on the feelings of trust that good
con-men can instill in the unknowing. Those of us out here who have been burned
by people who have asked us to trust them still require some amount of legal
recourse when things go wrong and free spirits won't stand behind their work.
Not that I'm singling you out personally, but you are the one who took
exception to my remarks initially.

And you are correct. Many builders choose his props as they are neat, seem to
offer the ability to have an in flight adjustable unit for 1/12 the cost of a
PROVEN prop. The price is intoxicating, but I would look at the price
difference as insurance. Damn! There goes that conservative side of me again. I
wish I could think a little more out of the box when it comes to potential
in-flight problems with MY PLANE, MY FAMILY AND THOSE ON THE GROUND I"M GOING
TO CRASH ON WHEN THE PROP TAKES A WALK.

>As for the props themselves, I sell quite a few of them. The test club I
>try to beat to death on my test stand is an Ivo. They are not the best
>prop in the world. I think MT has that sewn up pretty well. Of course,
>one is $900 and the other is $12,000 (and up). You get what you pay for.
>The Ivo is an affordable solution for PSRU engines in the higher power
>ranges. I don't think I'd run one direct drive. Your mileage may vary.

Thank you. You just reinforced my point. Ivo offers them for direct drive
applications.

>There are a couple tricks that will help with the Ivo however. BTW, >none of
this is from Ivo... it's strictly my own gibberish, and remember, >you got it
for free.

This is interesting. Ivo was very addiment about following HIS maintainance
procedures to the letter. Wouldn't warranty any others...

>Mark the front and rear plates and number the blades. Always install it
>with the relationship between the plates and the blades the same way as
>the first time you assembled it. The reasoning behind this is that this
>way the knurl will fall into the same marks it left in the blades
>originally. The reason for retorquing is not to crush the end of the
>blades, but to seat the knurl into the surface of the composite surface.
>The blades will "work" a little and the knurl will make it's mark on the
>surface of the blade. Once there is a "female" imprint of the knurl in
>the blade, it shouldn't change anymore. As for retorquing being a pain
>in the ass, all props that don't have a solid metal hub need to be
>retorqued periodically, until they don't retorque anymore. Wood props
>take a while to shut-up too. Same for composite over wood.
>
>As for the tape, it does do a pretty good job of indicating movement. I
>have a couple customers that broke their tape until they went to the
>knurled plates. After that, no more broken tape.
>
>Lastly, as with any assembled prop, or any prop for that matter, it's
>best to do a dynamic balance job of the whole assembly as installed in
>the aircraft, with the spinner and all if you can. This can quell
>vibrations and loads that might excite a problem over time. This is also
>another reason to mark and number the assembly.
>
>I have beat and beat on my test club Ivo, and put it together and taken
>it apart more times than I can count in the course of installing it on
>many different engines.....it still has all it's blades. I have another
>one slated for installation on the -4. I don't have any reason to
>believe it will behave any differently.
>
>-j- (only time will tell, that's why it's called "experimental")

Quite true. But Ivo not only needs the benefit of time, he also needs the
benefit of a product that isn't so finicky as to mounting, maintainance
procedures. Human nature being what it is unfortunately, many will tend to
circumvent a lengthy process, either throught a weakness in nature or a
unrealistic time schedule which is what did in our Velocity builder. Aand if
nothing bad happens the first time a short cut is used, will continue until
something bad or not so bad happens. This was the point of my original post.
Ivo will never be as successful as possible until he designs this weakness out
of his props. True, a proper complex prop has is difficult to service properly
and is best left to a repair facility. But such facilities can be found at just
about any airport. Ivo's props are serviceable by anyone who buys one, with no
checks and balances. This is one of the main reason that many of us become
homebuilders, this freedom from many reg's. But it is also the curse. Maybe the
best plan is to offer FBO's that repair Ivo's unit. Maybe you and he could work
out some kind of licensing arrangement. OOPS! That too constaining for free
spirits. Darn! Could have been the start of a lucrative business venture.

All of this is in my honest opinion of course.

Dale Alexander
Velocity 173 RG Elite

From: Jeffrey.Spitzer@nospam.gat.com (Jeff Spitzer)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Subject: Re: Ivo Prop question.
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:52:31 GMT

On Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:51:43 -0800, Johnny <nwaero@northwest-aero.com>
wrote:

<snip>
 He's honest enough to tell you that his props
>are experimental and developmental... just like the aircraft you might
>be constructing.

For me personally, I'd rather not "experiment" with props.  Just like
I don't want to "experiment" with using hardware from Home Depot to
hold my control system together.  If the engine dies or siezes then
landing is still possible in most  cases.  There are plenty of cases
where a prop failure *can* be terminal.  Props need to stay together.
If I doubt for a minute that one won't then it's not going on my
airplane.

Jeff Spitzer

Here's my favorite:
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who
do"  (unknown)