From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why radial spoking?
Date: 13 Apr 2000 00:50:40 GMT

Peter Armitage writes:

>> I don't know about a large portion but there are also folks who ...
>> "hydrate or die".

> Care to expand on that last part?

The CamelBack people have this slogan on their advertising copy, as
if you risk death without one of their warm water nursing aids.  I
haven't seen any of these things used in professional racing and for
the majority of riders who believe in this advertising slogan it isn't
necessary either.  I doubt that I will die soon from dehydration
although I ride about 10000 miles a year and haven't had a bottle on
my bike since my first bike came with one.  Not being a racer, as most
of those who write here, I allow myself the pleasure of stopping for
something to drink now and then.  but but but, what if it's a hot day
and there isn't any place to...  Yes, the scenario is well known.  On
such occasions I save a soft drink plastic bottle in my jersey pocket
to tide me over.

The point is that "Hydrate or die" is not true although many believe so.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why radial spoking?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 01:32:42 GMT

Jon Isaacs writes:

>> My read of what Jobst said about that relates more to the
>> competitive assumptions in the assertion that the only way to stay
>> hydrated is to carry the water with you.  Most, but not all, of us
>> on this group ride either to commute, as exercise, or on tours.

> Do you really think it is reasonable to start out on a long ride in
> the summer without some water along?  I don't ride in areas where
> there is a sufficient supply of water that I can get it when needed.
> And riding off road in the summer sun, this could actually be
> deadly.

> Personally I think it is foolish to start any sort of ride over an
> hour long without sufficient water to last for 2 or more hours.

Well, I've been riding bike since the 1950's here in the SF and Santa
Cruz area, the Sierra Nevada, and the Alps for many years.  It was my
early rides in the Sierra with local bike racers that spawned the
"death ride" when racers unprepared for long climbs came apart on the
hills and returned to tell of their death march.  I haven't found the
need to carry water except on days where weather was unusually hot.

> I am not necessarily advocating Camel Backs, I prefer bottles
> myself.  But Jobst stated that there was no need to carry any water,
> one could stop and get a drink where ever one wanted.

You can often prove your point if you take your case to the extreme.
I did not say that there is no need for carrying water but you choose
to make that out of what I wrote.  It sounds to me like willful
misinterpretation, a common ploy when disagreeing with what was said
while having no reasonable counterpoint.  The name Mitke comes to mind.

> I also will say that I am in the minority around here when it comes
> to using water bottles when doing single track etc.  One real
> advantage of a Camel Back is that it doesn't go flying when I take a
> header or when I hit a particularily tough section.  Another is that
> one can get a quick gulp more easily and without riding one handed.

So you use a Camelback and feel a need to defend it.  I didn't ask for
carback volunteers to raise their hands and be counted.  I just said
that their slogan doesn't ring true and that one can get along with
far less than a bag of warm water on ones back.  Besides, it makes a
sweaty back and grows mold.

> However, personally after seeing the mould that can grow in a
> bottle, I am reluctant to consider a plastic bag.

The soda pop I buy at stores is cool and clean and the water in the
Sierra is snow melt.  Next you'll tell me I'll die of gardenias (aka
giardia) soon.  It's been a long time and I think I know clean water
when I see it.  It doesn't come out of a lake or cow pasture.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why radial spoking?
Date: 14 Apr 2000 15:19:56 GMT

Jon Isaacs writes:

> I would like to know your actual position on carrying water on
> rides.  Apparently I have misunderstood you position.  I can not
> personally imagine starting on a ride of 50 miles or more without 2
> bottles of water.  I will stop as needed to refill them.

Most of what bike riders use their water bottles for is wetting a dry
mouth rather than drinking for hydration.  When they need water they
drink about half or all of the bottle.  If you analyze why you are
reaching for the bottle, I think you'll notice the difference.  The
riders with whom I ride take a swig of water now and then but when we
stop they drink a large soda pop or several cans.  This is because we
are thirsty and need the water.

From my observation, much of the drinking that goes on is gratuitous
and does not constitute hydration but rather wetting the whistle, so
to speak.  The urgency is not what Camelbak would lead you to believe:

http://www.camelbak.com/default2.htm

>> So you use a Camelback and feel a need to defend it.

> Nope I don't use one but have friends that do.

The hydration thing is in my estimation a misconstrued concept.  I
drink plenty when I ride or I wouldn't be here today.  I don't believe
I need to drink every time the opportunity occurs.  You cannot drink
enough to maintain normal body hydration during strenuous exercise
anyway, no mater how much you drink.  There is a natural depletion of
hydration that must be made up in rest periods.

>> The soda pop I buy at stores is cool and clean and the water in the
>> Sierra is snow melt.

> Nice to be riding where there are stores and snow melt.  I am not
> often in that position.

I choose to ride in areas where this is possible.  Locally the Santa
Cruz mountains, the Mt Hamilton and Tamalpais areas and the Sierra
Nevada are such areas.

Other rides are described in:

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/#Jobst
http://ng.netgate.net/~hosler/
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/SierraSpring.htm

> I think that one point to consider is that the primary market for
> Camel Backs is not roadies but MTB'ers.  IN the riding I have done
> in San Diego's mountains, I find that having sufficient water is
> important or I will suffer physically.

The Santa Cruz mountains are full of trails and these were our
exclusive domain in the days before fat tired bikes.  In fact it was
the many rides there with Fisher, Ritchey, Breeze, Guy and others that
lead to developing fat tired bikes.  I still ride these trails and my
watering methods have not changed.  The rides in Ray Hosler's web site
show action on Last Chance Road and others.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Why radial spoking?
Date: 15 Apr 2000 00:30:23 GMT

Doug Huffman writes:

> I ride 35+ miles per day (more on weekends) in >90F & >90%RH.  (Lest
> I be thought comparing myself with JB, they're flat seacoast miles
> on the beachfront.)  I ride from toilet to toilet unloading excess
> water especially on cooler days.  There is water, almost always
> convenient, for refreshment.

> As a child, growing up at the foot of JB's Coast Range, we used to
> drive up to artesian springs just for the novelty.  Since the Loma
> Prieta quake they're gone.

Ah, but no, they are still there but in different locations.  That's
one of the great things about the area.  Water is everywhere... if you
know where.  Many of the springs are left over from the days of
boiling cars of the 1930's when one needed to refill often.  Many of
these pipes coming from hillsides along the road are overgrown with
willows, the dowsers wood.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>