From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: frame prep ideas for extended storage
Date: 19 Mar 2001 21:41:57 GMT

Michael Evans writes:

> I built up a bike from a steel frame last year, and I sprayed Wiegle
> Frame Saver into it.  It coats the interior with a sticky brown
> residue that protects it from rust.  	Unfortunately I can't find
> their web site...

It's best that way.  You could also fill the frame with epoxy,
preferably with lead filler if you want to deaden the ringing sound of
the tubes and make the bicycle as heavy as possible for descending.
Steel frames have not been known to rust out, especially in storage.
The greatest damage to a frame comes from a seat clamp slot not being
filled with grease on assembly, this place being constantly bathed in
water from the rear wheel on wet roads without fenders.  It's this
water and the failure of a frame painter not removing the newspaper or
rag plug from the seat tube after painting.  Such a wick enhances
rusting enormously.  Frame goop is for the paranoid.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: treating the inside of a steel frame?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <D3xda.1671$eb1.112751@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:15:31 GMT

Derk Drukker writes:

> I have been thinking if it would be a good idea to spray a thin
> layer of liquid wax or oil or something similar inside a steel frame
> to avoid rust.  If so, does anyone know what substance would be best
> to use for this purpose?

Forget it.  The whole idea of rusting out from the inside is a
hypothetical consideration brought on by frame failures that occurred
from someone leaving rag or paper stuffing in a seat tube (the tube
that ingests all the water) that subsequently became a rust wick.

If you make sure the clamp slit at the seat post is sealed (thick
grease is good enough) there won't be enough moisture in the frame to
cause significant rust.  Back in the days when everyone rode steel,
internal rust was not a problem over 20 years of commuting in all
weather or more.  Frame saver is a boutique elixir sold by fear
mongering.  I've ridden unprotected steel frames since the 1950's and
never had a rust problem.  But what if...???

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: treating the inside of a steel frame?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <FQRda.1869$eb1.126565@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:53:09 GMT

George Daniels writes:

> The stays and top tube need careful eyeballing, widening drain holes
> so the air can escape upwards as the thinned paint or linseed flows
> downwards or drilling drain holes if none exist and faith as who can
> see in a chainstay unless your a surgeon under malpractice.

Bad suggestion.  First, these are not drain holes but vent holes for
brazing.  Without a vent, in an otherwise closed tube, brass will not
flow into the lug and a fillet braze will have bubble holes.  After
brazing, a good frame builder will braze the vents shut.  You can do
the same with RTV.  Those holes are not sacred.  They belong to the
user who should close them if there is any doubt about moisture
intrusion.

> Try twirling the frame in the appropriate directions over head with
> two coats to be sure.  Everyone experiences the, oh shit I missed a
> spot, god knows what happens in a chainstay.

Oh no!  Tied and soldered spokes being dead, we HAVE found a new
incantation, including swinging a dead cat (or bicycle frame) around
the head.  What mystic prayers are appropriate for this rite?

> Mr. Brandt lives in the west coast possibly dew point free(and
> expects me to rag about this)while we hear in the east grow grass
> and are generally ambivalent about raw dirt and frequently are
> victimized by rot, milldew, green spot(heheh), and rust rust rust.

Oh yes, in California it never rains, relative humidity is always
below 5%, and the sun always shines.  If you believe that, you are
spending too much time in travel magazines.  By the way, I rode my
bicycle in Germany for six years and spent time in some of the worst
weather in US Army mountain warfare training areas among other things.
I also rode many miles in winter, see:

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princ

> Have you seen the price of a GTV!!! or a '58 ford wagon?  My god.
> Listen if e.merkx rode it take it over to the shop and have them
> strip and paint it.

I don't get it.  This must be an "IN" joke.  What are you implying?

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Palo Alto CA

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: should I drill a hole in the bb of my rain bike?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 23:42:53 GMT

Clifford who? writes:

> I am using a 1969 Raleigh competition as a fixed wheel rain bike.
> It is fully fendered.  The BB is not cut-out, and I did use frame
> saver on it.  Should I drill a "drain hole" in the BB shell?  The
> alternative is pulling the seatpost after a ride in a deluge and
> inverting the bike to make sure there's no water pooled from seepage
> through the "vent holes" (in the chainstays, near the d/o's)) or
> around the seatpost.

Plugging the offending vent holes is a lot easier and they are only
there to assure a good braze joint.  They have no purpose after that.
The seat post, if properly clamped, will not move and therefore,
properly greased, no water can intrude there either.  Don't put any
gratuitous leaks in the frame.  Just keep it dry on the inside.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: should I drill a hole in the bb of my rain bike?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:00:05 GMT

Richard Ney writes:

>> Plugging the offending vent holes is a lot easier and they are only
>> there to assure a good braze joint.  They have no purpose after
>> that.  The seat post, if properly clamped, will not move and
>> therefore, properly greased, no water can intrude there either.
>> Don't put any gratuitous leaks in the frame.  Just keep it dry on
>> the inside.

> What do you suggest plugging the vent holes with?

When the frame is known to be dry inside, like after dry warm weather
or more than a week storage in a dry room, use RTV or epoxy.  This is
assuming there is no water inside the tubes, just humidity moisture.
Natural diffusion will dry the air in the tubes if ambient air is dry.

Good frame builders plug these holes with brass when they are finished
building the frame.  Because it is tricky, most don't try.  Brazing
heats the tube and makes air expand, blowing the brass out of the
hole.  This has got to be done with skill.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: should I drill a hole in the bb of my rain bike?
From: josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 06:26:58 GMT

In article <VwOQ7.11564$DD2.119783@typhoon.sonic.net>,
 <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:

>Good frame builders plug these holes with brass when they are finished
>building the frame.  Because it is tricky, most don't try.  Brazing
>heats the tube and makes air expand, blowing the brass out of the
>hole.  This has got to be done with skill.

I plug mine with low-temperature solder rather than brass.  Less
heat to the tube, and that means less air expansion inside the
tube.  Also, it's easier to re-open solder-plugged vents if you
want to work on the frame again.

--
          josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
            http://www.phred.org/~josh/
        Braze your own bicycle frames.  See
    http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html