From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:25:01 GMT

John Everett writes:

> It helps if you have some old rims and spokes laying around. The
> only time I was faced with this problem I laced an old rim to the
> hub with 8 spokes, 4 on each side. I didn't attempt to tension
> them. Hanging on to the rim gave me enough leverage to remove the
> freewheel

Leave the left flange out of this because any good light weight hub
will not transmit any significant torque through the center of the
spool without it being permanently twisted.  The problem is that the
right flange can usually not be re-spoked or even the cut off spokes
removed.  Otherwise there would be no problem in rebuilding the wheel
in the first place.

The best way to get this thing off is to machine away the steel
freewheel core until it breaks through to the threads and unscrew the
rest.  The other way is to put the core in a vise and unscrew the hub
using a large pipe wrench.  The latter may cause some damage unless it
can be done with a strap wrench.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:24:08 GMT

Tom Gibb writes:

> Try lacing the rim back up with just left side (non drive side) spokes.

Don't do that and don't try to hold the hub by the left flange.
Removal torque is far more than the noodle in the middle of any
reasonably light hub can take.  I have done the crude removal that
works.  After disassembling the FW, place the core in a vise and use a
16" pipe wrench on the right flange to unscrew it.  It makes a few
nicks in the flange but it is not fatal.  A strap wrench will probably
not bring up enough torque for removal but you should try that first.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:47:15 GMT

Tom Paterson writes:

>> After disassembling the FW, place the core in a vise and use a 16"
>> pipe wrench on the right flange to unscrew it.  It makes a few
>> nicks in the flange but it is not fatal.  A strap wrench will
>> probably not bring up enough torque for removal but you should try
>> that first

> You can tape up the teeth of the pipe wrench with duct tape, three
> or four layers. Spring the wrench open by squeezing the threaded
> adjuster toward the handle and you'll see how the jaw rocks to clamp
> onto pipe. Adjust about in the middle, not too loose or tight. The
> taped jaws still get a good grip and you might save those
> flanges. Borrow the aluminum 18" from your FLP, they're a lot easier
> to manipulate than the steel ones. Try the big strap wrench first if
> you can find one.

Adhesive of a tape is a viscous lubricant (as you will discover if you
try it) while steel teeth of a pipe wrench will cut through to the
metal immediately if any significant torque is applied.  That is the
design of the tool.

As I said:

* The best way to get this thing off is to machine away the steel
* freewheel core until it breaks through to the threads and unscrew
* the rest.  The other way is to put the core in a vise and unscrew
* the hub using a large pipe wrench.  The latter may cause some damage
* unless it can be done with a strap wrench.

I've done this several times, the last being today on an old
Campagnolo hub that was a gift for exactly that reason.  My friend
Peter Johnson did the removal in his machine shop.  It was effortless
but tedious.  That's how he gets some of the components for 1960's
bicycles.  Someone screws up.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:34:15 GMT

Heinz Getzler <getzler15@yahoo.com> writes:

>>> Try lacing the rim back up with just left side (non drive side) spokes.

>> Don't do that and don't try to hold the hub by the left flange.
>> Removal torque is far more than the noodle in the middle of any
>> reasonably light hub can take.  I have done the crude removal that
>> works.  After disassembling the FW, place the core in a vise and
>> use a 16" pipe wrench on the right flange to unscrew it.  It makes
>> a few nicks in the flange but it is not fatal.  A strap wrench will
>> probably not bring up enough torque for removal but you should try
>> that first.

> Take a freewheel chain took and remove all the cogs. Then take a rim
> and lace the wheel. Then try using the freewheel remover and you
> should no problems.

Hold it.  We've been there.  This is obviously not a large flange hub
in which the hole pattern lies outside of the freewheel core.  If that
were the case then there would be no problem in lacing up a new set of
spokes and building the wheel.  It seems that most people responding
to this with "good" suggestions, do not visualize what is before us.
This is an age old problem that I and bicycle shops have seen often.
Unless the freewheel has not been ridden, there is no clean solution
other than machining (or grinding) away the core.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
From: cnhyf-1001304000@usenet.etext.org (Paul Southworth)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:48:06 GMT

In article <Hews7.64$no1.666@typhoon.sonic.net>,
 <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote:
>
>Hold it.  We've been there.  This is obviously not a large flange hub
>in which the hole pattern lies outside of the freewheel core.  If that
>were the case then there would be no problem in lacing up a new set of
>spokes and building the wheel.  It seems that most people responding
>to this with "good" suggestions, do not visualize what is before us.

I can visualize what I have actually done.  I find that doesn't take
much imagination.

>This is an age old problem that I and bicycle shops have seen often.
>Unless the freewheel has not been ridden, there is no clean solution
>other than machining (or grinding) away the core.

Bladed (not oval) spokes have no heads - just a hook.   You insert
them from the inside of the (drive side) flange. I have removed
several freewheels from the hubs of foolish customers who cut them
out without removing the freewheel first.  Never have I resorted
to the grinder, and I have never used channel-locks on the flange
either.  I have intentionally trashed the hub in a vise before,
just to save the freewheel, but that hardly qualifies as a "fix".

Some (like myself) might argue that this is the only useful purpose
for a bladed spoke.  We always had them laying around because nobody
wanted to buy them.  They have a tendency to break when you actually
build a wheel out of them, and they are expensive.  My hunch is
that, based on your talk on this newsgroup, you probably don't have
a stock of bladed spokes in your workshop. :-)

Anyway, feel free to stick with any technique that pleases you,
as I do.  I recognize the inherent satisfaction in taking a piece
of steel to a grinder as you cluck at the foolishness of the
poor bastard who cut the hub out.

--Paul

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Freewheel removal without rim
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 03:11:47 GMT

Paul Southworth writes:

> Some (like myself) might argue that this is the only useful purpose
> for a bladed spoke.  We always had them laying around because nobody
> wanted to buy them.  They have a tendency to break when you actually
> build a wheel out of them, and they are expensive.  My hunch is
> that, based on your talk on this newsgroup, you probably don't have
> a stock of bladed spokes in your workshop. :-)

I'll agree with that.

> Anyway, feel free to stick with any technique that pleases you,
> as I do.  I recognize the inherent satisfaction in taking a piece
> of steel to a grinder as you cluck at the foolishness of the
> poor bastard who cut the hub out.

If you can remove the stubs of the cut off spokes, this sounds like
the best way to go about it.  I suspect one should use an old cast off
rim for this because it can cause bends unless the spokes are
carefully adjusted.  The zigzag ended spokes were a fad for a while
but as you said, they don't work so well.  I didn't follow that but
predicted it at the time.

Jobst Brandt    <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org>