From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 24 Aug 1998 20:52:06 GMT

Anonymous writes:

> Did anyone notice the cables on Marco's bike?  On the front cover of
> the new velonews it looks like his right lever is going to his front
> brake, and it looks like there are no guts in the left shifter.

I think what's far more interesting is how poorly the TdF leaders
descend.  Falling off the road and riding into the crowd or over
sidewalks.  Form the TV coverage I saw, leaning more than 10 degrees
from the vertical is spooky for these guys.  Pantani at one place rode
into the crowd rather than lean his bike into the turn and another
rider went onto the sidewalk similarly, all on clean dry pavement.

This underscores once more that descending is not a big feature in
professional racing.  Even Bahamontes, who lost as much as five
minutes on a descent won the TdF.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 17:02:36 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>> I think what's far more interesting is how poorly the TdF leaders
>> descend.  Falling off the road and riding into the crowd or over
>> sidewalks.  Form the TV coverage I saw, leaning more than 10 degrees
>> from the vertical is spooky for these guys.  Pantani at one place rode
>> into the crowd rather than lean his bike into the turn and another
>> rider went onto the sidewalk similarly, all on clean dry pavement.

> I would not be too quick to judge, especially if I had not actually
> been descending with them in the particular situation you mention.
> TV is pretty good at distorting the situation.

Don't assume that if you don't see this that others can't either.
That doesn't make them good descenders.  It doesn't take a lot of
observation to see guys who are squirrelly on their bikes.  I see them
all the time around here.  What do you mean by TV is distorting.
These scenes are not staged, it's live coverage, from several cameras
and many instances.

> Last year we learned, via TV and a few selected shots, how "bad" a
> descender Jan Ulrich was when in fact on the 13 mile, 5000 foot descent
> of the north side of the Col du Glandon he lost only 15 seconds to the
> leaders.  We all know that a good descender can put 15 seconds on a
> poor descender in less than 2 miles!

This reminds me of your story of Lemond proving he is a good descender
because he made up three minutes or the like from the top of the
Galibier into Briancon.  Nearly all of that happens to be a straight
TT course where a motorcycle can reach 100mph.  We knew Greg was a
good time trialer already.

>> This underscores once more that descending is not a big feature in
>> professional racing.  Even Bahamontes, who lost as much as five
>> minutes on a descent won the TdF.

> I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the sprinters were
> considered far better descenders than the overall GC leader.  When
> the driver of the laughing group bus calculates how fast they must
> climb a pass, he always adds back time they will make up on the
> ensuing descent.

Well that's an old story.  It's like average speed.  You can't make up
what you lost in the last hour in the next 20 minutes no matter how
good you are in descending.  Climbing is always more important in the
mountains.

> In the 1994 Tour, none other than multiple 500cc motorcycle
> world champion Kevin Schwanz was in the Motorola team car.  He was
> behind Sean Yates as he chased and caught the leaders while descending
> the Col de la Madeleine.  Schwanz's comments was that he could not
> believe how fast Yates descended.  Coming from a guy who knows what
> going fast is and taking chances I think that says a lot.  Kevin was
> in a car right behind the rider on the descent, not watching it on TV.

Nice anecdote.  What else did you expect him to say.  He no doubt was
impressed by the difficulty of the sport and gave a compliment.  I
don't see how this means they corner well.  What I saw were curves
with riders braking nearly to a crawl as their bikes remained
practically vertical as they veered into the edge of the road on
several occasions, including going up on the sidewalk. this when the
street was smooth and clean.

What is it you didn't see in these examples or didn't you watch the
last mountain stages.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 23:09:55 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>> I agree with Jobst on this one...

> I would be interested in knowing what actual facts you base your
> conclusion on.  Hopefully, your opinion is not based on just
> watching the TV.

The way you say that one might think you are referring to a soap opera
on TV and that you don't believe video monitors relay any valid
information.  This is, after all, live coverage.  Are you implying
that one must be present at the race to say for sure what happened.  I
guess you don't believe in instant replays either... it's all just TV.

> Top pros from the 50's on (Coppi, Merckx, Ocana, Fignon, etc.) have
> all had horrific crashes on descents.  Sean Kelly crashed out of the
> 1986 Tour of Switzerland on a descent.  Sean also won Milan San Remo
> a few years later with an incredible descent of the Poggio.

Oh yes, the Poggio.  What do crashes have to do with the riders'
ability to corner fast?  You ride a lot, you fall a lot but not
necessarily on mundane dry pavement.  Kelly's win of Milan-San Remo
may have been after he descended but then who was chasing.  It's all
relative.  Those who failed to catch were even slower.  It doesn't say
much about the absolute descending of any of them and that's the point.

> Does that make them poor descenders?  I hope not because that seems
> to mean that anyone who has crashed on a descent is a poor
> descender.

So what's the point of mentioning it, or Are you trolling for Andrew
Albright again?

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 25 Aug 1998 23:27:27 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>> Don't assume that if you don't see this that others can't either.
>> That doesn't make them good descenders.  It doesn't take a lot of
>> observation to see guys who are squirrelly on their bikes.  I see
>> them all the time around here.  What do you mean by TV is
>> distorting.  These scenes are not staged, it's live coverage, from
>> several cameras and many instances.

> Telephoto shots can make thing appear closer than they really are.
> The camera can never really tell you how steep a given pitch is
> Could you tell from the TV it was 12% where Boby Julich rode off
> the road putting his rain jacket on on the Galibier?

Thanks for assuming I don't know when I see what I see.  I see you
didn't watch this part of the Tour or you wouldn't use such dodges.
On the other hand it's possible that you can't tell the difference
after all.  These were among others, scenes head on in the curve, from
above, and from behind on the follow motorcycle, not telephoto.

>>> Last year we learned, via TV and a few selected shots, how "bad" a
>>> descender Jan Ulrich was when in fact on the 13 mile, 5000 foot
>>> descent of the north side of the Col du Glandon he lost only 15
>>> seconds to the leaders.  We all know that a good descender can put
>>> 15 seconds on a poor descender in less than 2 miles!

>> This reminds me of your story of Lemond proving he is a good descender
>> because he made up three minutes or the like from the top of the
>> Galibier into Briancon.  Nearly all of that happens to be a straight
>> TT course where a motorcycle can reach 100mph.  We knew Greg was a
>> good time trialer already.

> Jobst, you memory is fading.  Not only did I never say this, but in his
> Tour de France career, LeMond *never* descended the Galibier into Briancon.

You said it and I read it.  It was in a similar exchange where you
claimed Lemond was one of the premier descenders and I pointed out that
when he rode in this district as an amateur he was a dog downhill and
even later when visiting he was off the back after he and his dad
waited for one of our locals who descends briskly.  This was first
hand information for me because I know how fast these locals were at
the time.

>>> In the 1994 Tour, none other than multiple 500cc motorcycle
>>> world champion Kevin Schwanz was in the Motorola team car.  He was
>>> behind Sean Yates as he chased and caught the leaders while descending
>>> the Col de la Madeleine.  Schwanz's comments was that he could not
>>> believe how fast Yates descended.  Coming from a guy who knows what
>>> going fast is and taking chances I think that says a lot.  Kevin was
>>> in a car right behind the rider on the descent, not watching it on TV.

>> Nice anecdote.  What else did you expect him to say.  He no doubt was
>> impressed by the difficulty of the sport and gave a compliment.  I
>> don't see how this means they corner well.  What I saw were curves
>> with riders braking nearly to a crawl as their bikes remained
>> practically vertical as they veered into the edge of the road on
>> several occasions, including going up on the sidewalk. this when the
>> street was smooth and clean.

> Yes, I guess Kevin Schwanz, who has three World Championships in 500cc
> motorcycle racing knows nothing about how to corner well.

I said nothing about his abilities or his knowledge.

> And more to your point.  I don't see how you can make such a harsh
> judgement if you were not there.  You just don't know all the
> circumstances surrounding what could have potentially  been happening.
> I could see some reasonable person saying, "boy, based on what I
> saw on TV, these TdF pros were not descending very well.  Clearly,
> they know how to ride their bikes, I would like to find out what
> was really going on at that time."

You keep suggesting that one must be there to recognize a good or poor
descender so I suspect you are not all that skilled at it yourself, or
you wouldn't consider it such an arcane art that cannot be seen by
simple observation.

>> What is it you didn't see in these examples or didn't you watch the
>> last mountain stages.

> I have the entire ESPN TV coverage on tape, please tell me exactly which
> stages you saw this behavoir and I will go look at it myself since I
> don`t remember seeing it the first time around.

I watched this in Europe and it wasn't ESPN.  The three major mountain
stages showed the downhills of several sections.  If you saw it you'll
recall the run off the road and the one by Pantani into the edge of
the crowd and the sidewalk ride by a member of the lead group.  I know
what I saw and what I can deduce from it.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 26 Aug 1998 03:12:55 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>> The way you say that one might think you are referring to a soap opera
>> on TV and that you don't believe video monitors relay any valid
>> information.  This is, after all, live coverage.  Are you implying
>> that one must be present at the race to say for sure what happened.  I
>> guess you don't believe in instant replays either... it's all just TV.

> We are not talking about football here, we are talking about bike racing.
> TV does not do a good job of showing how steep a climb may be or how fast
> a rider may be going.  You take exception at commentators claiming 60mph
> speeds on descents, but the public buys it because to them it looks that
> fast.

I am not "the public" that likes to believe unbelievable things.  I
can interpret what I see and as you see, George Mount also makes the
point that most of the noted racers are neither great descenders nor
do they win races that way.  That's pretty much what I said at the
start.

>> Oh yes, the Poggio.  What do crashes have to do with the riders'
>> ability to corner fast?  You ride a lot, you fall a lot but not
>> necessarily on mundane dry pavement.  Kelly's win of Milan-San Remo
>> may have been after he descended but then who was chasing.  It's all
>> relative.  Those who failed to catch were even slower.  It doesn't say
>> much about the absolute descending of any of them and that's the point.

> I don't understand this statement.  You said you thought Pantani was a
> poor descender because he crashed on clean, dry pavement.

Please tell me where I said Pantani crashed.

> I am giving you an example of Sean Kelly who crashed in the Tour of
> Switzerland on clean, dry pavement (ergo he is a poor descender by
> your own definition) who then went on to smoke the descent of the
> Poggio to win the Milan San Remo.  So, is Sean Kelly a good
> descender or a poor descender?

Now you're asking me about a retired racer on the basis of what I saw
in the TdF this year.  This is the usual runaround when you disagree
with something someone writes about racing.  Besides, I think this
aspect as already been covered in what I wrote.

>>> Does that make them poor descenders?  I hope not because that
>>> seems to mean that anyone who has crashed on a descent is a poor
>>> descender.

>> So what's the point of mentioning it, or Are you trolling for
>> Andrew Albright again?

> The point worth mentioning is that by your own definition people
> who crash on descents on clean, dry pavement can't descend.  But
> Sean Kelley did just that then smoked everybody on the Poggio.
> I was showing that your logic is flawed.

That was not my contention and if you believe so, please show me where
I even suggested it.  As I said, this is the usual Bruce runaround,
where in the end you have turned the argument to the other persons
point of view and challenge him to defend yours.  Cut it out!

> I seem to remember that you crashed on clean, dry pavement once
> going down Page Mill Road.  Does that make you a poor descender
> like Pantani?

I have not crashed on clean dry pavement on page mill road or any
other such pavement, although I have fallen from mechanical failures
or in a bike race collision.  But I guess you can make this stuff up
to suit your needs.  Just pack it in.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 26 Aug 1998 03:27:48 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>>>> This reminds me of your story of Lemond proving he is a good descender
>>>> because he made up three minutes or the like from the top of the
>>>> Galibier into Briancon.  Nearly all of that happens to be a straight
>>>> TT course where a motorcycle can reach 100mph.  We knew Greg was a
>>>> good time trialer already.

>>> Jobst, you memory is fading.  Not only did I never say this, but in his
>>> Tour de France career, LeMond *never* descended the Galibier into Briancon.

>> You said it and I read it.

> Then you read it wrong, because I never said that.  Please go use Deja News
> to look up the posting and tell me what I said, because I never said that
> and LeMond has *never* descended the Galibier from Briancon in the Tour de
> France.  If you are so sure that this happened, please give the year of the
> Tour de France when LeMond descended the Galibier into Briancon.

That isn't what you said, you said that he made up the time INTO
Briancon down the Lauteret which is the south descent from the
Galibier.  By the way, Greg is not french and spells his name Lemond.

>> It was in a similar exchange where you claimed Lemond was one of
>> the premier descenders and I pointed out that when he rode in this
>> district as an amateur he was a dog downhill and even later when
>> visiting he was off the back after he and his dad waited for one of
>> our locals who descends briskly.  This was first hand information
>> for me because I know how fast these locals were at the time.

> I like your definition of first-hand information.  Next time you roast
> somebody over the coals for using information or telling an incident
> that was passed to them by somebody else, as you have done here, I will
> remind you that by your definition, they are passing along "first-hand"
> information.

These are folks with whom I rode with regularly and know how well they
descend.  For me that is first hand in contrast to having read it in an
article.  I heard it from the guy who did it.

>>> I have the entire ESPN TV coverage on tape, please tell me exactly which
>>> stages you saw this behavoir and I will go look at it myself since I
>>> don`t remember seeing it the first time around.

>> I watched this in Europe and it wasn't ESPN.  The three major mountain
>> stages showed the downhills of several sections.  If you saw it you'll
>> recall the run off the road and the one by Pantani into the edge of
>> the crowd and the sidewalk ride by a member of the lead group.  I know
>> what I saw and what I can deduce from it.

> There were 5 major mountain stages in the Tour de France.  Two were run in
> rainy conditions, one was neutralized because of drug protests.  To which
> of the remaing two stages are you referring?

Both.

> In the two remaining mountain stages, when the action heated up (i.e
> the riders were actually going fast enough for you to potentially
> judge their skill) on one stage, Pantani only had to climb to get to
> the finish (i.e. no descending).  And on the other stage, when the
> action heated up, Pantani was off the front with only *one* other
> rider so there was no "lead group" as you refer to in the paragraph
> above.

There were ups and downs throughout the stages.  It doesn't have to be
on a long hill to be a descent.  Tell me you didn't see Pantani going
around corners.  Now you want to argue when and where it was.  Well it
was in any corner that I saw him and others take.  It's not any
specific place.  I only mentioned the incidents of brushing the people
at the edge of the road and the sidewalk excursions, and the dive into
the bushes by Julich which I didn't see but read about.  The
description of that was that he was alone with another rider on a
break and without apparent reason ran out of road and returned to
catch up with no apparent damage.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 26 Aug 1998 17:04:56 GMT

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

>> Please tell me where I said Pantani crashed.

> OK. Here is a direct quote from one of your oroiginal posting on
> this subject (DejaNews is a great tool!):

- Pantani at one place rode into the crowd rather than lean his bike
- into the turn and another rider went onto the sidewalk similarly,
- all on clean dry pavement.

> If you want to try the semantic dodge, fine, but that certainly
> qualifies as a crash in my book.

I don't see where Pantani crashed in that statement.  You may want to
see that but then you jump to huge conclusions most of the time to
make your point just as you do below.

>>> The point worth mentioning is that by your own definition people
>>> who crash on descents on clean, dry pavement can't descend.  But
>>> Sean Kelley did just that then smoked everybody on the Poggio.
>>> I was showing that your logic is flawed.

You are inventing things as usual.  Just present your point of view
rather than distort other's.  I said nothing of the kind.  I said that
from what I observed, they did not descend well and made squirrelly
maneuvers in curves at lean angles that were slight, and then I gave
a couple of examples of these.  What is your point?

>> That was not my contention and if you believe so, please show me where
>> I even suggested it.  As I said, this is the usual Bruce runaround,
>> where in the end you have turned the argument to the other persons
>> point of view and challenge him to defend yours.  Cut it out!

> Here is the text of your original posting, again from DejaNews:

- I think what's far more interesting is how poorly the TdF leaders
- descend.  Falling off the road and riding into the crowd or over
- sidewalks.  Form the TV coverage I saw, leaning more than 10
- degrees from the vertical is spooky for these guys.  Pantani at
- one place rode into the crowd rather than lean his bike into the
- turn and another rider went onto the sidewalk similarly, all on
- clean dry pavement.

> What I read this to say is "the pros can't descned very well, they
> crash on dry, clean pavement."

Well, that's your prerogative to read it that way.  Don't reinterpret
my words.  Just present what you believe is the case.

> Please tell me what you really meant to say here.

I already said it... several times.  I think you could add George
Mount's comments to it and explain why you think otherwise.

>>> I seem to remember that you crashed on clean, dry pavement once
>>> going down Page Mill Road.  Does that make you a poor descender
>>> like Pantani?

>> I have not crashed on clean dry pavement on page mill road or any
>> other such pavement, although I have fallen from mechanical
>> failures or in a bike race collision.  But I guess you can make
>> this stuff up to suit your needs.  Just pack it in.

> No, I did not make it up.  You, yourself, told me that you crashed on
> Page Mill Road.  Here is what you told me... You got a new front fork
> for your bike that had more tire clearance so that you could ride in
> the mud.  When you put your front brake on the new fork, you forgot
> to lower the brake pads to mate with the rim (more mud clearance
> means that the rim is farther away from the fork crown).  When you
> were descending Page Mill Road you went to use your front brakes and
> the brake pads chewed through your front tire causing it to blow out
> and you to crash.

Well that didn't happen on Page Mill Rd, but what has that got to do
with my descending skills.  As I said, if you ride a lot, you fall.  I
know of no fast riders who have not fallen.  Usually these falls occur
on some exceptional condition, such as ice, unexpected gravel or
water, or other unpredictable circumstance.  I think installing a
replacement fork with a slightly different brake reach is an unusual
descending event.  It was not visibly apparent on installation that
the brake pads rode higher.

So now what?

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Motercycle style?? Marco?
Date: 27 Aug 1998 00:41:47 GMT

Tom Kunich writes:

>> But, more to the point, where are the facts or the evidence to
>> suggest that Lemond and Roche are much better descenders than the
>> current crop of pros.  That is what I was asking for.

> Jobst has claimed that he has looked at the TV coverage to tell how
> Pantani was cornering. This disturbs me since anyone that has
> bothered to look at the world around them would know that you can't
> always tell what is what by looking at a small, low resolution
> picture.

Who said anything about whether it was downhill and how much?  There
is no doubt that hey were coasting at a fair clip and went around
corners with bicycles in a nearly upright position while running out
of road.  As another contributor explained, one of these events was
when Pantani and Ulrich were away after the Madeleine.  That the sun
was shining and that it was dry is also evident.  What are you trying
to drag in by it's heels?  Low resolution???

> There are many places I know on my bicycle that a picture would
> plainly show to be downhill. In fact, they are uphill and are the
> result of an optical illusion of the surrounding vegetation growing
> at an angle due to the prevailing winds.

This is getting weirderer and weirderer!

> Road camber and surfaces aren't possible to see from a TV view.

> Possible potholes or debris may be invisable.

> It appears that Jobst has made a judgement on Pantani's cornering
> based on a single incident.

> And as we all know, you can tell everything about a person with a
> single posting or a single incident in his career.

You are proposing that in more than a hour of continuous coverage on
three separate occasions constitutes a "single incident".  I think you
are grasping at straws.  Whom are you defending so doggedly anyway, or
are you just arguing as usual just to be contrary?

> I do know one thing -- Jobst isn't a pro rider no matter what other
> professional credentials he may have. The amazing thing is that he
> is criticizing the riding ability of the winner of the biggest,
> hardest, most highly contested race on the calendar.

Oh wow!  I see, your heroes are unassailable and experts in all
disciplines.  I have noticed this trend in this forum on occasion.
Like "who's built more wheels, me the professional or you the ivory
tower gnerd?"  Or "Who knows more about bicycles, the world bicycle
racing champion or an engineer who rides category X?"  Your argument
that physical strength is proof of other skills doesn't make much
sense except to other tifosi who believe bicycle racers are gods.

> Now, who is more likely to know what he's doing? The guy that has
> proven beyond all doubt that he is competent or someone that is
> criticizing a TV film?

There you have it gentlemen!

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>