From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Fixed vrs. Floating Cleat Position
Date: 27 Feb 2001 17:33:59 GMT

Jon Isaacs writes:

> All you established is that you can ride effectively with fixed cleats.

> According to Henry's explanation, the foot normally rotates during a
> stroke so that your classification of "special needs" is actually
> the normal situation.

I don't believe that for a moment.  You ought to monitor what your
foot does on a typical pedal stroke.  Unless you have Teflon or oiled
platforms where your shoe contacts the pedal, you have no rotation to
speak of.  As has been brought out in similar threads, float is mainly
a compensation for inaccurate cleat orientation.

>> The simple idea that "float is better" is not well founded.
>> Floating pedals/cleats are a solution in search of a problem.

> I suggest that fixed cleats are actually a solution in search of a
> problem.  What possible advantage is there to them for the majority
> of riders?

As I have mentioned, float only becomes glaringly uncomfortable when
the interface is wet and lubricated.  At that point the pedal feels
like a banana peel and the foot must be consciously held in a straight
position.  This is an unusual requirement, humans, normally having
friction with the surface they walk, do not normally engage these
muscles.

> After all, in most activities the foot is free to rotate and trying
> to fix the foot only serves to risk damage and for what gain?

Please show me where the foot is free to rotate when load bearing.
This situation is usually called slipping and falling, or twisting an
ankle.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Fixed vrs. Floating Cleat Position
Date: 27 Feb 2001 23:32:01 GMT

Tim McNamara writes:

>> As I have mentioned, float only becomes glaringly uncomfortable
>> when the interface is wet and lubricated.  At that point the pedal
>> feels like a banana peel and the foot must be consciously held in a
>> straight position.  This is an unusual requirement, humans,
>> normally having friction with the surface they walk, do not
>> normally engage these muscles.

> Everyone's experience may vary.  I ride Speedplay road and MTB
> pedals, and the rotation with both of these is about as free as it
> gets.  I have no need to consciously hold my foot is a straight
> position.  Indeed, subjectively my legs feel more relaxed with these
> pedals than with Look, SPD or quill pedals and cleats.  But it's not
> so much of a difference that I notice it unless I am concentrating
> on the sensation.  And it's entirely possible that I'm just fooling
> myself.

I don't believe you are analyzing the situation accurately.  When
there is free rotation on the pedal and you are climbing a hill, the
foot twists out to one side or the other, depending on the lean of the
bicycle with respect to the line between hip and foot contact.  This
is not a perpendicular in most parts of the pedal stroke.  A
lubricated interface lets the foot (heel) flop from side to side as
the pedal angle changes.  When dry and the show plastic bears on dry
metal, this is marginally OK but wet, it is stepping on a banana peel.
It is not for nothing that track riders have flown over the bars with
these pedals.  When pressing down hard, twist is imperceptible until
you lift the foot and discover too late that it is free.

> OTOH, I have never pulled out of Speedplay pedals in a full-on sprint
> whereas I have with quill pedals, SPD's and Look pedals.  And I have
> found no pedals that are easier to get into, which is probably the main
> reason they are my favorites.

You probably did not pull it out but twisted it out on the downstroke
only to discover that it was disconnected on the upstroke.  This is
the common failure but it occurs all the time on a wet pedal.  The
reason it works is that sitting gives better muscular control to hold
the foot straight and the pedal angle to the hip joint does not vary
as much as when standing.

>>> After all, in most activities the foot is free to rotate and trying
>>> to fix the foot only serves to risk damage and for what gain?

>> Please show me where the foot is free to rotate when load bearing.
>> This situation is usually called slipping and falling, or twisting an
>> ankle.

> The foot isn't free to rotate when you walk, because of the friction
> between the ground and the sole of your shoe or foot.  Back in the
> day of wearing smooth leather soles, however, after walking across
> concrete with the surface sand particles still sharp, one could look
> at the soles of one's shoes and see the telltale traces of the foot
> rotating at some point in the stride.

Well you don't have to go that far.  Try a waxed linoleum floor with
rubber soles.  Why do you think they put up warning pylons in markets
when liquid is spilled.

The whole float concept is STUPID!  It is a worsening of the effect
that makes these pedals dangerous for track sprinting.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: Shimano SPD system: Do I really need it?
Date: 6 Jun 2001 17:48:21 GMT

Brian Huntley writes:

> Forgive my ignorance, but what _is_ the benefit of a two-sided
> clipless pedal? Is it that you never have to flip the pedal?

You are forgiven.

The idea seems to have arisen first with the introduction of the SPD
pedal for dirt bicycles where one more frequently has need to put a
foot down and then quickly engage the pedal again.  For this purpose
the pedals were made two sided so that one didn't need to go thorough
the compound motion of rotating the pedal into position from as one
had done with other pedals.

The one sided pedal had its origins with clips and straps, which were
inherently one sided, although most early pedals were not (until a toe
clip was attached).  This gave rise to the one sided Campagnolo pedal
that was a standard for many years.  Such pedals must have a heavy
side so that they will hang in a known position, one that, without the
use of counterweights (weight not permitted on bicycles), is not
right-side up by default.

I find the Shimano SPD pedal a clever response to foot attachment
because it broke new ground, being two sided and dirt insensitive, and
recessed in the shoe so that walking is easy.  Now that's a lot in one
design as I see it.  Meanwhile the faithful continue to bitch and moan
about Shimano for things that are universal in the marketing driven
bicycle business.  I don't like it either, but it isn't a Shimano
idea.  Mavic and Campagnolo are equally skilled in changing and
dropping products that are useful.

> I'm considering a pair of 'combo' pedals - SPD on one side and
> platform on the other - for my get-around-town bike.  Are they a bad
> idea?  Does the exposed mechanism foul?

Something is wrong with this picture.  If its a downtown basher, use
rubber pedals that can be pushed with any shoe, with or without cleats.
If you want pedal attachment get real two sided SPD's and be done with
it.  These hermaphrodites are both fish and fowl and make a poor
compromise.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Shimano pedal hair-splitting tech question
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <kORCb.2683$XF6.60718@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 04:37:36 GMT

John Morgan writes:

> Allow me to paste a paragraph about Shimano pedals that has come
> into contention at my shop for your review and opinions:

> "Your standard clipless pedal design.  Two spring loaded metal
> binding jaws clamp onto the cleat when inserted into the mechanism.
> Once engaged, the cleat is held stationary by spring tension applied
> to the pedal's binding jaws.  To release, the rider must overcome
> the spring tension by twisting the heel outward until the 10 degree
> release angle is reached."

> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while
> some of my co-workers say there is float.

SPD pedals have varying amounts of float angle, the recess in the rear
jaw of the attachment having a rounded slot without a center location.
Unfortunately they do not offer a pedal/cleat combination that has NO
float or I would get them.  I don't care to have my foot rotate
laterally while pedaling, especially when standing, where there are
natural side forces that, with float, require active canceling.

> I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float,
> but from all the research I have done, there is no evidence of this
> being true.  In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals are
> designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any
> rotational movement of the foot, and any lack of tension during this
> movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an improperly set
> tension screw.  This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."

Well that isn't the case either.  The spring load keeps the retention
jaw closed, but it does not hold the foot onto the pedal.  That is
inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge.  The more a cleat
wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way
you perceive it.  Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well
as used ones.

Who invented this "float" crap anyway?

> *Defined as: Angular Float - Rotational movement the pedal allows
> your foot (in regards to the crank arm) before spring tension is
> applied to the cleat.

So what else is new!

> If there are any other techie changes that you can suggest, I
> welcome them.  I am about ready to do another update for the FAQ,
> and now would be a good time to fix any problems in there.

You should ride SPD pedals before passing judgment.  They are
excellent pedals for my use, except their float.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Shimano pedal hair-splitting tech question
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <laUCb.2707$XF6.61071@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 07:19:45 GMT

Matt O'Toole writes:

>>> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while
>>> some of my co-workers say there is float.

>> SPD pedals have varying amounts of float angle, the recess in the
>> rear jaw of the attachment having a rounded slot without a center
>> location.  Unfortunately they do not offer a pedal/cleat
>> combination that has NO float or I would get them.  I don't care to
>> have my foot rotate laterally while pedaling, especially when
>> standing, where there are natural side forces that, with float,
>> require active canceling.

> IIRC, the original model 737 SPD had no float with the no-float
> cleats.  That is, there was no float as long as you didn't move your
> feet consciously.  I'm riding with one generation newer than that --
> the 535.  While they don't hold as firmly as the 737, they still
> don't float freely unless they're worn.  The newer pedals (515,
> etc.) seem to float no matter what, which is why I seek out the
> older ones.

>>> I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float,
>>> but from all the research I have done, there is no evidence of
>>> this being true.  In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals are
>>> designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any
>>> rotational movement of the foot, and any lack of tension during
>>> this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an
>>> improperly set tension screw.  This kind of movement I would
>>> simply call "slop."

>> Well that isn't the case either.  The spring load keeps the
>> retention jaw closed, but it does not hold the foot onto the pedal.
>> That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge.  The
>> more a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that
>> wouldn't work the way you perceive it.  Besides, new cleats wobble
>> from side to side as well as used ones.

> I think your pedals are worn, Jobst.  I imagine you ride more than I
> do, and I wear out a pair every 3 years or so (cleats every 6
> months).  Pick up a NOS pair of 535s on eBay, try 'em out, and see
> what happens.

I assure you mine are not worn and that I am using new cleats of the
kind I first used with early 535 pedals that had a narrow notch in the
holding clamp.  These have a broad radius that wobbles all over the
place to my chagrin.  I have looked at all the pedals Shimano offered
today and see none that have a narrow notch to arrest lateral motion.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
Subject: Re: Shimano pedal hair-splitting tech question
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Message-ID: <%NcDb.2823$XF6.65731@typhoon.sonic.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:47:23 GMT

Per Elms writes:

> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the different cleats that Shimano
> sells with their pedals. As far as I understand the float is built
> into the cleat.

> SM-SH50 no float
> SM-SH51 float
> SM-SH55 float and multi release.

> I've never tried the SH50 so I can't say there is no float as they
> promise, but I've tried the other two and it is a very big
> difference on the same pedal.

I have been using SM-SH55 and -SH51 cleats with 535 Pedals and they
have float as I reported.  In contrast, 525 pedals have no float with
SM-SH50 and SM-SH51 cleats because the pedal has a V-shaped slot in
the retention clamp.  I have not tried the 55 multi release or the 737
pedal.

> Just as recent as earlier today I was checking out some Shimano
> pedals on the web.  The 520 and the 540 was spec'd to have 4 degrees
> of float.  However they were also bundled with the SH51 cleats.  All
> the other Shimano SPD pedals were also bundled with the SH51 cleat
> but were not spec'd to have any float.

> I can't really figure this out to be honest, but I'm happy with my
> SH51 cleats on all my SPD pedals, since I want float.  I tried the
> SH55 cleat once but it scared me since I couldn't really feel if my
> pedals were attached or not.

That sounds like problems I don't need.

http://www.cyclecomponents.com/cgi-bin/ak_secs.cgi?funk=visa_artikel&artgrp=ped&artnr=SHPDM540&limit=000&extra=000&varumarke=000&btg=0&visa=1-30Beskr

> It's a Swedish site but you can make out the line about 4 degree
> float and the cleat SH51 ;)

What you can make out on the 540 pedal in the picture, is that the
retention clamp has a broad and radiused recess that allows float
regardless of cleat.  In contrast, the 525 Pedal clamp has a V-shape
and gives no float.  I just got a pair of these and am glad that there
still are float free pedals.  I had lost faith in these guys up to
now having looked at their list of pedals under Deore XTR and LX groups
that show only pedals with lots of float:

http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/index.phtml

Click "Mountain Bike", "Catalog Selection", "LX" or whatever you want
to see and then scroll to the bottom of the component menu for pedals.

None of these are float free.

959, 647new, 540, 545, 534, 520new, 515.

I didn't find the old 520 anywhere.

Jobst Brandt
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org