From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: spoke-spoke notching
Date: 24 Apr 2000 20:35:35 GMT

Ted Heise writes:

>>> Does the notching that develops between crossing spokes eventually
>>> lead to spoke failure?  Or, is there some mechanism that causes the
>>> notching to be self-limiting?

>> I'm still working on that.  My wheels now have more then 200000 miles
>> on them (actually the hubs and spokes, but with new rims) and have not
>> broken there nor do the notches seem any deeper than they were years
>> ago.  Fear not, data is being collected.

> Would it bias the results if you gave us an interim analysis?

I doubt it but then there isn't anything to report.  The notches are
about the same as they were after the first few thousand miles.  The
point is that is something were going to happen, it should have done
it a while ago.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: spoke-spoke notching
Date: 25 Apr 2000 01:25:06 GMT

Matt O'Toole writes:

>> I'm still working on that.  My wheels now have more then 200000 miles
>> on them (actually the hubs and spokes, but with new rims) and have not
>> broken there nor do the notches seem any deeper than they were years
>> ago.  Fear not, data is being collected.

> Jobst,  Are you sure there isn't an extra zero there?  :-)  Wow.

That's about 10,000 per year and these wheels were first built when
Wheelsmith opened in Palo Alto more than 20 years ago.  The Campagnolo
Record hubs look a bit scuzzy but work fine, the QR handles being the
straight original kind.  They were my first non tubular wheels.  My
tubular wheels with Robergel spokes have been resting with a good coat
of dust these many years.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>

From: jbrandt@hpl.hp.com (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: spoke-spoke notching
Date: 3 May 2000 21:09:40 GMT

Johan Bornman writes:

>> I'm still working on that.  My wheels now have more then 200000
>> miles on them (actually the hubs and spokes, but with new rims) and
>> have not broken there nor do the notches seem any deeper than they
>> were years ago.  Fear not, data is being collected.

> Did you keep track of how many times you replaced the bearings?

No, the axles have broken often, the cones once or twice but the balls
have been replaced several times for spalling and rust caused by high
speed wet descents where water strikes the axle at more than 40mph and
sprays into the bearings.  I'm sure people who transport bicycles on
the roof of their cars have had this happen as well.

> Have you ever replaced the races?

Yes, I have an extractor for that and used it for my hubs as well as
others who came by for some help.

> You say the hub is a bit scuffed, but what does it look like after
> all those years of use?

I don't think I said that.  They look a bit scruffy, meaning no sheen
on the aluminum.

> Is the anodising on the aluminiuim still there?

These hubs were never anodized nor were most of the old Campagnolo
parts.

> Have you ever broken a spoke?  Are you still using the original
> nipples?  How many rims have you gone through?

I think I mentioned that I break a spoke now and then that was
damaged, typically from a stick in the spokes.  When I re-rim the
wheel I toss out nipples that don't turn well or have some other
reason to be replaced.

> Do you have only this one bike with one set of wheels?

No, I have two sets, the other is a backup and is newer.  The other
day when a friend that I was following ran us through a hole in the
top lift of asphalt, we ruined four wheels (without a flat).  I rode
the other wheels to work the next day.  After a rebuild, the new rims
squealed so badly that I used the other wheels on the weekend but got
back to the primary wheels again soon.

> Which tyres gave you the best mileage?  What brand and type of
> spokes are on there?

What else, Avocet Road 20's, the tire that I urged Avocet to make when
they went into the tire business with IRC.  It is exactly the tire I
like to ride, being almost exactly the size of a Clement Campionato
del Mundo.  They give more than twice the mileage other tires of that
era gave.  Since then other tires use a similar tread rubber. DT
1.8/1.6 swaged spokes.  I'm sure there are others as good.

> How do you resist the urge (if you get such things) of building
> yourself a new set of wheels for the hell of it?  I enjoy building
> wheels so much that I'm continually looking for excuses for new
> wheels for myself and my buddies.

You'll get over it.

> Have you done all these miles on the same frame?

No.

> Saddle?

No.

> Do you make time to ride by commuting to work?

I put on about 20 miles per day riding to work over a loop that goes
over some hills and through a pleasant rural area, although I live less
than five miles from the office.  That and a 100 mile+ ride in the
Santa Cruz Mts on Sunday fills the schedule.  When it rains I drive
the car and when its just threatening I ride directly to work.

The rest of the mileage gets complemented by a 2000 mile+ three week
ride in the alps of which you've probably seen enough, but if you
haven't:

http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/#Jobst

That's the bike.  Bernina = Cinelli, Tire test = Johnson, Glacier =
Ritchey, Today I ride a Johnson made by Peter Johnson the rider on the
Gotthard bridge.

Jobst Brandt      <jbrandt@hpl.hp.com>