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From: John De Armond
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Apr 1992
Subject: Re: Propane power

>There was a thread on this (as if you didn't see it yerselves) and it got
>me to wondering about going dual-fuel on the Skylark. Anybody into propane?
>I'd have about 10.2:1 compression and am wondering if it would be too
>doggy (<300HP) :<{)=  or just stoopid, or maybe a worthwhile thing to do.
>Lots of propane stations down here, tho they mainly want to fill those
>gas grill tanks by weight, not cars. I figure I'll be near the upper range
>of pump gas and the lower end of propane, compression-wise. The 430 is
>supposed to run at 2BTDC advance on premium, so I expect to have to buy
>toluene in bulk or something to be happy with liquid fuel.

Dual fuel is a lost cause.  It's the worst of both worlds.  I used to
own a compressed gas and welding supply wholesaler where we also sold
propane and did conversions.  Propane is a GREAT motor fuel IF you
build a propane engine.   Gas engines running on propane perform
poorly and get bad mileage.  If you've got a ready supply of propane,
I highly recommend it.  It's just like having good old Sunoco 260
gasoline or better but without all the problems.  No vapor locking,
easy starting, lots of power.  Propane really makes a turbo/supercharged
engine scream.

>Anybody experiment with nitromethane in street vehicles? Does it mess up
>the octane badly? It seems like it'd be almost mixture-neutral and
>could give you a nice bump-up in power as long as you were built for it
>and didn't get too crazy. They sell the stuff (not too cheap) for model
>airplanes in gallons, mixed with methanol and castor oil (optional). I
>think a gallon of 75% goes for about $40 (maybe more now). That ought
>to be better than running a nitrous bottle in terms of time at boost
>per dollar. If you can dump it in your tank (maybe with some other
>alcohol or aromatic to compensate mixture and octane) or have a small
>switchover tank of the "good stuff", that'd be interesting. Any
>experiences with this? Anybody running top fuel in a street machine?

Nitro is currently running from $30 to $50 a gallon depending on
where you buy it and in what quantity.  Forget the airplane fuel, get
the pure stuff if you want to play with it.  For a whole variety of
reasons, some of which I'll list below, street nitro is not a good

First a bit about nitro.  There are lots of myths about nitro, most of
which are false.  First off, nitro is fairly resistant to detonation.
"Octane" is really a misnomer when applied to nitro because
the detonation process is fundimentally different.  This confusion is
what confuses people.  In a fuel/air (such as gasoline) engine, the
detonation process is not really detonation as used in the classical
explosives sense.  When a detonation event occurs, burn waves originate
from several places in the combustion chamber at once and converge.
The burn rate is faster than normal combustion but it is still a burn.
Nitro, being a true explosive, will detonate in a classical explosives
sense.  That is, a bulk decomposition takes place with the propagation
rate measured in thousands of feet per second.  The high detonation
rate coupled with the higher energy content of the mix means that
when nitro does detonate, spare engine parts almost always result.

Nitro has a fairly high detonation sensitivity.  Detonation sensitivity
is a term of art that has a fairly prosaic definition ("Internal Combustion
Engines", Obert) but in this case understand it to mean that small changes
in conditions (temperature, air pressure, advance, etc) can cause the level
of detonation to change radically.  This makes hairy edge (or sloppy)
tuning a practice that again produces spare engine parts fairly frequently.

Nitro burns fairly slowly, something NOT related the ability to resist
detonation.  This means lots of spark advance and because the mix is
heavy and wet, lots of spark energy.  A hang-fire, where the ignition is
just strong enough to light the fire but the fireball is small enough
that it hangs around the plug for a few microseconds,  is a sure-fire
way to achieve detonation and spare parts :-)

Nitro is an excellent solvent for a wide variety of materials including
most rubbers.  This means no  rubber in the fuel system and short lives
for rubber in the engine such as seals.  I learned this lesson the
hard way.

Nitro along with its decomposition products, will combine with motor
oil and form high explosive.  You can always tell a novice fuelie
because sooner or later he will disregard the requirement to change
motor oil before each event.  The result is the first thing that
happens during cranking is a head separated from the block.  Or worse.

Nitro is itself unstable and can turn explosive.  Racing nitro contains
inhibitors and an indicator that changes color when the nitro begins
to decompose and become unstable.  The problem is the indicator
tells you you've now got a bomb on your hands.

Nitro is easily absorbed through the skin and has an effect similar to
nitroglycerin.  You ain't never had a headache until you've had a nitro

Nitro changes density with temperature.  That's why you see the top
fuel guys messing around with the hydrometers (glass floats, usually
in a graduated cylinder, calibrated in specific gravity.)  Nitro
must be mixed for the temperature at hand.

IF you're getting the idea that nitro in a street engine is a bad idea
you'd be right.  Low percentages of nitro are not too bad but you
don't get much from it.  Run enough to get a kick in the ass and
you've entered into the area where you can't approach it casually

That's why  nitrous has become so popular.  Just about the
same street bang but without the worries and lots less cost.
Nitrous, if you buy it right, is very inexpensive.  DON'T buy it
from the hotrod shop.  You're paying another markup.  Go to a
welding or industrial gas supplier and buy it in 380 cu ft cylinders.
You'll have to make an initial investment in some high pressure hoses
and fittings in order to do the transfers to your car cylinder but it
is quickly repaid.  Be sure to specify industrial grade gas or you'll
pay a medical markup.

While we're at it, I'll mention that because our good old Uncle Sugar
classifies nitrous as a drug, you may get some funny looks when you
try to buy nitrous.  As is typical when the guv'mt tries to regulate
personal behavior, the regulations are confusing and conflicting.
If you want to buy nitrous as a drug, you must have a prescription.
If you want to buy it as an industrial gas, you do not.  If you're a
hotrodder or a restraunt needing nitrous to charge whipped cream
dispensers, you can buy it without problem.  However, the federalies
put the burden of proof on the dealer.  If the dealer has reason
to believe (or should have had reason to believe, they always get you with
that.) the real intent of an industrial purchase is medical or for
abuse, he cannot make the sale.  Thus, if you make a wisecrack about
the big nitrous party while buying a cylinder for your hotrod, the
dealer will put it back on the shelf and refuse to sell to you.
Similarly if you come in looking like a 60s refugee with a roach clip
hanging from your neck, driving a clapped out Vega, don't look to
be able to make the purchase.  The FDA nazis try to entrap dealers
with setups so most dealers take it quite seriously.  Don't be
surprised if the dealer asks to see your nitrous setup the first time
or two.

NOS and some others try to work around this by selling "denatured"
nitrous that contains some sulfur dioxide which supposedly makes it
impossible to sniff.  That the SO2 can be easily filtered out
by bubbling it through a solution of sodium hydroxide (lye) is not
considered (oops did I let a secret out? :_)  Glass wool in the
solution helps keep the gas in contact with the solution long enough
for complete absorption to occur.)  As usual, we get to pay the
penalty for Big Brother in the form of inconvenience and higher prices.
Plus the SO2 under the right conditions can cause corrosion in your

Give laughing gas a shot.  It'll make you grin from ear to ear.
Even if you only let your engine sniff it :-)


From: John De Armond
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Apr 1992
Subject: re: Propane Power!

>another tidbit question-- what about fuel tanks?  I was thinking of
>strapping two gas grill tanks in my trunk (yes there is plenty of
>room)... is there anything different I should do about this for cars?
>will someone have a fit with them in the trunk?

For god's sake, NO.  Not only will you not be able to get them filled
(it is against DOT regulations to place a propane grill tank in an
enclosed space in a vehicle) but you've created a deathtrap.  Vehicle
propane tanks have multiple safety features designed to help them
survive in a crash.  Among them, minimum wall thickness, reenforced
and gusseted penetrations, crash rated mounting brackets, an internal excess
flow valve, an internal stop valve.  The excess flow valve is critically
important.  If you're in a wreck where the tank comes loose and the
outlet piping is ripped off, the internal valve detects the excess flow
and slams shut.  Since this tank will likely still be in the vehicle,
the life you save will most likely be your own.

If the DOT ever saw the installation, they would likely impound your car.
Methods of seeing the installation include having a propane dealer call
and report you.  There have been a number of deaths due to propane
explosions from leaking grill tanks so the DOT is serious about this.

>hmmmm...  for a gas gauge-- would i just have
>to put a pressure gauge in the dash next to my other gauges (speedo,
>etc)?  all kinds of things to think about, but the more i think about
>the idea, the more i like it.

No, you still have to have a conventional gas gauge.  A vehicle tank
can be fitted with a float sender.  The vapor pressure, and thus what
a pressure gauge would read, remains constant at a given temperature
until all liquid is gone.  A pressure gauge would make a good tank
temperature gauge.


From: John De Armond
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Apr 1992

>The reason i mention this is because the only contact i have had with
>propane is using the small bottles of it for a cooking stove on winter
>camping trips.  after leaving them out overnight, we couldn't get
>enough gas to come out of the bottle to cook with.

Those little Gaz et al stoves use BUTANE which boils at atmospheric at
29 degrees.  I've seen some Gaz cylinders that claim a mix of propane
and butane for low temperature use.  Can't work.  The mix is not azeotropic
and so the propane will boil off first and leave the butane.

>also, what about tank puncture?  is this a problem?  or would the line
>tearing be the only thing i would need to worry about during an

A DOT-approved tank has a minimum wall thickness and has to pass a series
of crash tests.  In the years I had the welding shop where we sold
propane, I never heard of a single vehicle tank getting punctured.

If you did have a puncture, the danger would be more acute but would
pass rapidly.  The propane would evaporate rather rapidly but would
form an explosive cloud for a bit.  It would dissipate much faster than
would the same amount of gasoline.

I'd feel safer in a propane powered vehicle if for no other reason than
the tank has to meet rigid specs and is really tough.  Compared to a
sheetmetal gasoline tank, it's a real win.


From: emory!!lusky
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: M85 info
X-Sequence: 5282

> [this article was SUPPOSED to go to]
> Finally, someone dealing with M85.  Hey, I'll make you a deal, I'll
> tell you what I know if you tell me what you know!  I'm looking to
> do an M85 conversion in my late model 5.0L Mustang (doubt I'll keep
> the stock engine, but it's definitely going into that body).  I need
> some help with locating the proper fuel injection components (I want
> to do it with fuel injection) as well as some counseling on the
> actual construction of the engine... precautions?  Needed parts?  So
> far I think I've got a lot of info, but I certainly don't have
> enough.  So please, if you can help me out, I'd be very grateful.

Personally, I think methanol is really nasty stuff and I'd rather be
running racing gas.  I just started working on the project recently,
so I'm not extremely versed in dealing with M85.  Since this is a race
car with a fairly short intended life span, we've probably done some things
that are totally unsuitable for long term use (what do I mean "probably"
:).  To run M85, you'll need to almost double the flow capacity of your
fuel system (pump, injectors, lines?).  You'll also need to replace
any parts that aren't resistant to methanol.

[I'm with you on that one, Jon.  If you look at methanol objectively,
it has all the characteristics that are considered BAD in a fuel.
Low vapor pressure, high heat of vaporization (mixed blessing. Helps
cool the charge louses up cold running), sucks water like a cheap
whore, doesn't mix with oil very well when moist, corrodes just about
everything except cast iron or stainless, etc, etc Based on my experiences
with racing motorcycles and racing chainsaws on straight methanol, I'm
pretty sure I could get similar specific power from modern high octane
racing gas.  Such stuff wasn't available 20 years ago so methanol was the name
of the game.  JGD]

> you with enough info to figure it out... it says that straight
> methnol has a ratio of 6.4:1.  When you mix methanol with gas it
> lowers the ratio of the gasoline.  For 5% methanol mixed with
> gasoline, the ratio becomes 14.1:1 and for 10% methanol in gasoline
> the ratio becomes 13.7:1.  The paper also states that the ratio of
> gasoline is 14.5:1, in case you needed to know.  I would think that

Stoich for gasoline should be 14.7:1.  I think stoich for M85 is 9.18:1,
but I'm not sure and wanted to verify it.

> [My old pal, "Automotove Fuels Handbook" from SAE has a lot of info on
> methanol and M85 fuels.  Lots and lots of references too.  If your
> library doesn't have it, it might be a well-spent $100 to buy it yourself.
> There are tones of things being published on methanol in the various
> SAE proceedings, particularly with regard to flexi-fueling.  If you're
> going to drive this car on the street, I'd highly suggest you look at going
> the flexi-fuel route.  This involves installing a fuel composition sensor in
> the gas line that tells the ECU what ratio of meth and gas is being
> burned so it can adjust the ratio accordingly.  I've seen several new product
> announcements in the "Automotive Engineering" recently regarding
> composition sensors so they are available.  Flexi-fuel lets you use a tank
> of gasoline if you get stuck where you can't get meth or M85.  JGD]

Last time I went to the library I was looking for papers specifically about
methanol, and all of them I found mainly concentrated on either cold
starting or special lubricants.  Didn't think of checking the Automotive
Fuels Handbook (never looked at it, but have heard of it.  I'm sure my faculty
advisor has it sitting on the bookshelf in his office, but he's in Korea this
week).  I definately agree on the flexi-fuel part, but is there any off the
shelf ECU that will utilize the fuel composition meter?

[No.  This is strictly a roll-yer-own proposition.  I recall a Toptech (or
whatever SAE calls their topical symposia) announcement coming through here
awhile back on flexi-fuel.  The proceedings should be available and should
directly address the issues surrounding flexi-fuel.  JGD]

--=< Jonathan Lusky ----- >=--
    \ "Turbos are nice, but I'd rather be blown!" /
     \    89 Jeep Wrangler - 258/for sale!       /
      \        79 Rx-7 - 12A/Holley 4bbl        /
       \________67 Camaro RS - 350/4spd________/

From: "KEN MOSHER" <emory!!KEN_MOSHER>
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: M85 vs. Ethanol
X-Sequence: 5293

                          SUBJECT:  M85 vs. Ethanol
All this talk of M85 and Methanol got me thinking about the guy in TA/FC that
runs Ethanol instead of Methanol.  He's out of Division 5 and I've seen his car
run at our local track ... it's hard to miss, since it has a big corn kernel on
the side! <*grin*>  Also, when he makes a pass, it smells like beer and
bratwursts cooking!

Anyway, I'd think that Ethanol would be less corrosive and easier to work with?
 It would still have an affinity for water (but then it would make a good
cocktail, eh? <Grin>  Could someone enlighten me as to why Methanol is the fuel
of choice in the alcohol ranks and not Ethanol?

[Ethanol carries less molecular oxygen than methanol (50% vs 34.8),
has a lower heat of vaporization (0.93 vs 1.17 MJ/kg), a higher boiling
point (78 vs 65 deg C) and a slightly lower specific energy (3.00 vs 3.08).
Given that the costs are not much different and the fact that methanol
does not risk having BATFascists plow tanks through the side of your house
like pure ethanol does, methanol is the logical choice.  JGD]

-- Ken Mosher
-- Buick Grand National:  More *POWER*!  More *BOOST*!  Urrrrr! Urrrrr!

From: emory!!behanna (Chris BeHanna)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: M85 vs. Ethanol
X-Sequence: 5307

In article <wb!> writes:
>[Ethanol carries less molecular oxygen than methanol (50% vs 34.8),
>has a lower heat of vaporization (0.93 vs 1.17 MJ/kg), a higher boiling
>point (78 vs 65 deg C) and a slightly lower specific energy (3.00 vs 3.08).
>Given that the costs are not much different and the fact that methanol
>does not risk having BATFascists plow tanks through the side of your house
>like pure ethanol does, methanol is the logical choice.  JGD]

	How about "denatured" ethanol, or perhaps isopropanol?  The latter
isn't corrosive.  Don't know about the O2 content, but it makes a FINE
substitute for water in water injection systems :-).

[I have only heard this second hand but I understand that the BATFascists
get excited about even denatured ethanol in large quantities because of
the relative ease of de-denaturing.  For example, I used to de-denature
Fisher Scientific's denatured ethanol by passing it through an activated
charcoal column.  We used the ethanol for cleaning high impedance nuclear
detector electronics and the denaturant (gasoline and some complex organic
substance that I can't remember the name of) left residue.  It was cheaper
to filter than pay the booze tax.  I've never seen isopropanol mentioned
as a motor fuel.  Wonder why?  JGD]

Chris BeHanna	DoD# 114          1983 H-D FXWG Wide Glide - Jubilee's Red Lady	          1975 CB360T - Baby Bike
Disclaimer:  Now why would NEC	  1991 ZX-11 - needs a name
agree with any of this anyway?    I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs.

X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Sep 1993
Subject: RE: Propane Question
X-Sequence: 6204

>It occurred to me that one way to build interesting and legal late model
>cars might be to use alternative fuels.  A few questions spring to mind:
>(1) Has anybody out there actually done a propane changeover on a gas
>engine and how has it worked out.
>(2) What exactly are the current California smog rulings on
>propane cars.

In Maryland - alternative fuels including deasel exempts you
from smog checks.

I've thought of alky as an alternative fuel - If you're a farmer
you can get a license to distil it for fuel use only.  In
theory its about $.40 a gallon and you can run 13.0:1
compression.  It requires specialize fuel systems - but there
seems to be enough parts available (fuel tanks, pumps, filters,
and even carbs).


[But since alky requires almost twice the volume of gasoline, the cost
isn't any cheaper.  Probably more expensive after you add in the fuel
tax which you still have to pay.  Then you have to deal with hard to
impossible cold starting (where cold is defined as anything less than
balmy), icing of the manifolding, corrosion and much more rapidly
contaminated oil.  Not a real good deal.  Plus I have serious doubts
anyone could brew and distill the stuff in individual quantities for
$0.40/gal.  I've run alky in race bikes, cars and even a racing
chain saw.  It's almost too much hassle for racing.  No thanks at
all for the street.  JGD]

X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Sep 1993
Subject: RE: Propane Question
X-Sequence: 6219

>[But since alky requires almost twice the volume of gasoline, the cost
>isn't any cheaper.  Probably more expensive after you add in the fuel
>tax which you still have to pay.  Then you have to deal with hard to

Hmmm.  I thought you'd be exempt from the fuel tax.  I'm almost
positive farmers don't pay tax on their fuels.

[That's only for agricultural use.  Farmers still have to pay tax on fuel
used in their licensed vehicles.  It is not even legal to use the exempt
fuel in a lawn mower.  At least that's the way it works in Tennessee on
our little farm.  The exempt gas is dyed blue and also contains trace
elements that permit identification even if the dye is filtered out. JGD]

>impossible cold starting (where cold is defined as anything less than
>balmy), icing of the manifolding, corrosion and much more rapidly
>contaminated oil.

I just thought alky should be compared to high octaine racing fuels
~$3.00+ per gallon.  Also I agree that you should use it only on a
limited driver - i.e. a real hot street machine.  Barry Grant makes all
kinds of race alcohol stuff.  Some plastic fuel cells are sopposed to
be O.K. for both alky and racing.  Corrosion past the carb (intake
mainfold and heads etc.) is not supposed to be a problem.  Most of the
alky evaporates.  Concerns would be temperature - perhaps a preheater
in the bottom of the intake manifold or don't drive it in the cold.

>  Not a real good deal.  Plus I have serious doubts
>anyone could brew and distill the stuff in individual quantities for
>$0.40/gal.  I've run alky in race bikes, cars and even a racing
>chain saw.  It's almost too much hassle for racing.  No thanks at
>all for the street.  JGD]

Well there's no substitute for experience - just for kicks what kind of
hassles (other than those mentioned above) did you have.

Specifically storage problems?
Deteriorating fuel lines/ systems ?
Inconsistant starting ?
Inconsistant power ?
What about safety - blue flames in bright sunlight doesn't sound easy
to spot!
What about ignition systems?
Finally what about valve wear?


PS  Wait!  Racing chain saw?  Two stroke?  You mixed the oil with the
alky?  How did that work?  Is that a standard practice?

So many questions

[First the chain saw.  Yes, two stroke.  Klotz makes a fine two stroke
oil that will stay mixed even in the presence of moisture.  Ordinary
two stroke oil will mix with pure methanol but will separate out in
a cloudy mess if allowed to sit around and absorb moisture from the air.
My chainsaw racing ended around 1971 but motorcycle racing filled the gap.
We ran pure methanol in our motorcycles for many years.  Everything from
a 100 cc Hodaka SuperRat to my Yamaha 500 cc 4 stroke open class bike.

Problems.  Hmm, probably the worst one was the time I forgot and left the
meth in the chain saw after the competition.  Next morning the saw was
literally a pile of parts and white powder.  The magnesium alloy was
attacked by the meth and destroyed.  It attacks aluminum and magnesium
with enthusiasm.  Steel is unaffected.  Zinc is pretty resistant to attack.
Anodizing protects aluminum but even a minor scratch will lead to

If it is cool enough to need a jacket, starting a carburated alky engine
will be a bitch.  I guess the Hilborne guys can just crank enough liquid
fuel in to get the fire lit but it is almost impossible with carbs.
We devised a number of techniques including starting on a mostly gasoline
mix, supplying heat from a surplus APC heater and even starting fluid.
Icing was a problem even with the carb sitting behind the air-cooled cylinder.
We even ducted air from the cylinder and head around the carb(s).  Hosing
the inside of the carb (old round slide Mikunis) with LPS1 would keep
the ice from sticking.

Ignition?  All you can get.  You're trying to fire a wet fog, after all.
I rewound the stators of the magnetos in Hodakas and Suzuki 125s
in order to increase the spark energy.  Later we converted the bikes
to total loss (battery powered) CDI systems.  Most car people seem to
run either MSD-7 boxes or magnetos.

An akly engine is tolerant of being rich but is VERY intolerant of leaness.
Therefore most people overjet.  With a rich mixture being maybe 5:1,
supplying this mass of fuel taxes the whole system.  On the motorcycles,
for example, the gas tank cocks were replaced with valves and 1/2"
line run to the carbs.  All carb fuel passages were opened including in
some instances, adding epoxy buildup so holes larger than the casting
could be drilled.  As an illustration of how outrageous this gets,
the first cut on our Hodaka 100cc engine had the main jetting about
right with the jet removed from the holder!  High speed enleanment is
the fastest way I know of to disassemble pistons so adequate fuel is
VERY important.

Storage isn't a big problem other than it must remain capped at all times
or else it will absorb moisture out of the air.  It becomes corrosive,
loses heating value and will not mix with most oils when this happens.

Fire is a problem.  Never had an engine catch on fire any more than just
a backfire carb fire but I always feared it.  The flame is invisible
in daylight.  Other than something like M85 which contains gasoline
that colors the flame, I don't know a remedy except to be careful.

From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Propane Conversion
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 94 16:29:22 GMT (Michael Jank) writes:

>The question I am interested in is what the difference would be in
>dollars per mile when switching from gas to propane?

>If your truck gets 10 miles/gallon (not unrealistic for a 460) and gas
>is $1.25/gallon (not unrealistic for So. Cal.) then you are paying
>about 12 1/2 cents per mile.  What would be the corresponding figures
>for propane?

Here in the US, propane conversion does NOT make sense these days.  Gas
is at an all-time low in real dollars while propane is at what is probably
an all-time high.  Consider that regular unleaded is now about 95 cents/gal
after spiking up a dime in the last 2 weeks.  Propane in small quantities
(less than 100 gallons is generally priced at small quantity prices)
is running from between $1.25 and $1.45 a gallon and that is WITHOUT
highway taxes.  Add another 25 cents or more for the road taxes.  Then
consider that the conversion will cost better than $1500 and the converted
engine will get at least 20% lower mileage because of the lower heat 
content of a gallon of propane compared to gasoline.  Back when propane was
80 cents/gal and gasoline was 1.25 or more, it was a good deal.  But not


Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Converting engine to natural gas
From: John De Armond
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 00:23:08 GMT writes:

>I'm not sure if this is the right group to ask, but I will anyway!

>Has any ever converted a small (7 hp) gas engine to run on natural gas?
>If so, what were the steps involved and where can I get info on how its done

Sure.  Very easy.  Simply obtain an appropriate NG carburator and bolt
it on.  IMPCO, among others, makes the device.  You might also check
with Northern Hydraulics.  They sell an NG-fueled generator and probably
have spare parts or could direct you toward a source.  Be aware
that an engine will develop less power on NG than it will on gasoline.
A duel-fueled generator will typically produce about 3/4 the 
gasoline power on NG.


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