From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Biodiesel
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 01:43:20 -0500
Message-ID: <pnkn02d284os40f80affvv7luo99u73id4@4ax.com>

On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 20:09:19 -0600, rvfulltime
<rvfulltime@_removeme_isp.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:16:51 -0500, Hunter <HHamp5246@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Gang,
>>
>>Two weeks ago I read that Willie Nelson's diesel pusher runs on
>>vegetable oil. I heard it in passing and didn't pay attention.
>>
>>Then last week, at the Sarasota Rally I saw friends who are very into
>>solar and other alternative energy sources.
>>
>>I was told all I really need is a second tank on Bruiser. Then after I
>>start him on the regular diesel and warm him up I can flip the switch
>>and he'll run on oil.
>>
>>Oil is basically free or close to it because fast food restaurants
>>want a place to get rid of it.
>>
>>This all sounds too good to be true, but I googled it and that's what
>>the websites are saying.
>>
>>So... why aren't we running our diesels on vegetable oil?
>>
>>Hunter
>
>My 2005 Powerstroke Diesel manual says it can run on 5% BioDiesel,
>which means 5% Bio and 95% Diesel fuel.  While the diesel engine
>can work inside the cylinders with the bio stuff, you probably need
>a different fuel pump, fuel filters, different gasgets, etc.  I will personally
>follow the manual and not use more than 5%.
>
>Economic theory basically tells us that the reason our diesel engines
>don't use 100% BioDiesel is because it cost more to produce it when
>compare to digging crude oil out of the ground and refining it into
>diesel fuel.  If 100% BioDiesel was cheaper, engines would have been
>built to use it.  By costing more it could mean more labor, or it could
>mean more material, such a fuel to plant, fuel to harvest, fuel to refine,
>etc.  5%BioDiesel actually put more carbon into the atmosphere than
>normal diesel fuel due to the fuel used to plant, harvest, and refine.

You are correct on all points.  Some additional info.

First let's separate bio-diesel, a manufactured product, from used
cooking oil-based products.  Two totally different products.  What
constitutes bio-diesel can vary so widely that no generalities can be
made.  On to used cooking oil.

First off, that "waste oil" is not free.  Every restaurant I've ever
heard of including mine uses a waste oil disposal company.  This
includes all the chains including MickyDees.  That company puts THEIR
container on my property.  The contract that I have with my hauler,
pretty much an industry standard, says that the title of the oil
transfers to THEM the moment it is poured into THEIR container.  Other
provisions call for them to be the exclusive recipient for my waste
oil.

In return for signing this contract, I get to forget about the waste
oil problem.  They supply the tank, they pump the tank and they
dispose of the stuff, all with no cost to me.  They give me this
"free" service (and sometimes even pay me a little, depending on the
market) because the "waste" is actually valuable as a raw material.
The run the truck by my place and suck out the tank every two weeks
because they can sell the oil and actually make money.

Any restaurant operator who tells someone to help themselves to the
waste oil is condoning theft.  The person getting it is stealing.
According to articles in the trade rags I get, waste oil companies are
taking this very seriously and are pressing charges when thieves are
caught.  They're even hiring private detective to stake out waste oil
tanks in restaurant parking lots.  Especially in places where the
concentration of fruits and nuts is high - California, parts of
Washington state, Oregon, etc.

The only legitimate waste oil fuel is that which is made from oil
collected from restaurants where the fuel oil manufacturer has the
contract and provides his disposal tank.

Next issue.  Effects on engines.  As I read the ingredient list on a
carboy of fry oil, I see that it contains 1/2% silicone oil as an
anti-foam agent.  When silicone oil burns it produces silica, silicon
dioxide, the same stuff that sandpaper is made of.  True, it is very
fine when liberated that way but it IS still abrasive.  Silicone oil
cannot be filtered out because it is not a solid.  It is simply
another oil mixed in with the veggie oil.

Second, most all operators filter the oil one or more times before
disposal.  Filtering involves treating the oil with powdered pumice to
which polymer oil chains attach and then filtering through paper
filters.  I filter my oil once before disposal.  Large volume
operators like MickyDees filter one or more times a shift and
generally dispose of the oil daily.

Filtering does NOT remove the finest of the pumice.  One can actually
smell the pumice when the oil is drained while hot and smokey.  It is
almost inconceivable that an oil processor would have filtration
equipment capable of removing this grit, it's simply too fine and the
cost would be too high.  I KNOW that of the photos I've seen on the
net of waste oil processing for fuel, NONE of them have sufficient
filtration.

Now it might take awhile for that grit to damage an old-fashioned
mechanical injector pump or nozzle but that is NOT the case for modern
electronically controlled common rail systems such as Ford and Cummins
use. In those tolerances and clearances are specified in fractions of
millionths of an inch.  A hunk of fine grit is huge in comparison.

I got to examine a Ford/Bosch common rail injector disassembled on a
lab bench in a Ford lab the last time I was there.  I was amazed at
the degree of precision and finish that could be achieved in a high
volume mass produced environment.  When clean and grease-free, several
of the flat parts will wring together and stick to each other without
adhesive.  This is atomic attraction between two very smooth parts.
The only other place I can think of where I saw that effect is with
high precision gauge blocks.

I imagine that one of those assemblies, and there is one for each
cylinder, costs over a grand to replace.  Just imagine what the
residual grit in waste oil fuel will do to those precision surfaces.
It's not very good economy to save a little on the fuel while trashing
the injectors.

There is a reason for all those ASTM, API and SAE standards for diesel
fuel and it's not because someone loves to generate paper!  When
someone can show me a waste oil product that meets ALL of those
standards like real diesel fuel does, THEN and only THEN will I try
the stuff in my truck.  Until then I'll continue to pay a little extra
for dino fuel.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:34:28 -0400
Message-ID: <9iuc735vr7a60gv36p5401q4g852eukrgs@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 01:40:46 -0500, "GeekBoy" <geeekdude@yeehoo.com> wrote:

>Vegetable oil sticks him with $1,000 fine
>Bruce Henderson, The Charlotte Observer
>
>
>Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S. dependence on
>foreign oil.
>So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200 to
>convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought soybean
>oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more than diesel
>would cost.
>
>His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a $1,000
>fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes. He has been told to expect
>another $1,000 fine from the federal government.
>
>To legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have to first
>post a $2,500 bond.

Good!  It's about time that the lunatic fringe has to pay their fair share.  The rest
of us conventional non-road-taxed fuel users (mainly propane and natural gas) have
been paying separate road taxes for decades.  I ran a small propane powered delivery
truck fleet for years and I paid road taxes just like everyone else.  The difference
was that I had to account for it and mail payments to the state instead of having it
automatically collected at the pump.  I had a state-issued decal for each truck
window that kept the state revenuers away.

There is no difference between this guy and the farmer who puts untaxed ag diesel in
his truck.  Either way it's evading road taxes.

This fellow seems to think that the rest of us ought to reward him for ruining a
perfectly good vehicle to make a meaningless "statement".  "look at me, I'm special."
For once, government seems to be doing something right in slapping him down.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:37:44 -0400
Message-ID: <tigd73l5sb7263c0f68u18qq25ss2kgfqq@4ax.com>

On 18 Jun 2007 08:52:37 -0400, nicksanspam@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

>Neon John  <no@never.com> wrote:
>
>>... I ran a small propane powered delivery truck fleet for years and I paid
>>road taxes just like everyone else.
>
>About the same per mile as the gasoline tax?

Probably.  I say that only because I don't recall what the motor fuel taxes were back
then.

>
>Seems like you should pay less, if your fuel doesn't come from Iraq.

Seems like you ought to un-warp your view of what taxes are for.  Road taxes are for
funding road construction and maintenance and not to make some sort of inane
political statement.  It's one of the few taxes that work well and are applied
proportionally, at least when the political pricks keep their fingers out of the pie.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:55:11 -0400
Message-ID: <togd7359kjp9ibhueclosd4s6koriikuum@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:24:48 -0500, "GeekBoy" <geeekdude@yeehoo.com> wrote:

>"Neon John" <no@never.com> wrote in message

>> There is no difference between this guy and the farmer who puts untaxed
>> ag diesel in his truck.  Either way it's evading road taxes.
>> 
>> This fellow seems to think that the rest of us ought to reward him for
>> ruining a perfectly good vehicle to make a meaningless "statement".
>> "look at me, I'm special." For once, government seems to be doing
>> something right in slapping him down.
>
>So then you think electric cars should pay NO road tax and hybrids pay less
>for the same road usage?

I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what sort of splintered logic you used to
come to that conclusion.  Whatever you're smoking must be pretty stout.

Electric and other so-called alternative fueled vehicles should pay the same road tax
as everyone else.  The current system was devised when there were no alternative
fueled vehicles and everyone got about the same mileage.  Thus the per-gallon tax,
one of the easiest to administer and collect.  Vehicles are classified according to
weight and the heavier ones pay additional tax, reflective of the additional damage
they do to the roads.

This formula will have to be changed to remain equitable.  Probably to a miles-driven
basis.  The only other basis would be an energy-consumed basis, something quite
difficult to do while preventing widespread cheating.

The infrastructure for a mileage-based tax is already in place in many areas in the
form of emission stations.  Simply require electric and other similar vehicles to get
an annual "emissions check" (readout of the OBDII data) which reports the mileage.
Set the tag renewal fee proportional to the miles reported.

The tax rate should be set proportional to the road impact which in turn is
proportional to the pavement specific loading (pounds per square inch of tire contact
patch).  This is the basis for the current graduated tax on larger vehicles.  On this
basis, pure-electrics with their heavy batteries and narrow low rolling resistance
tires will pay a bit more per mile.

John, who drives electric vehicles but doesn't want any special set-asides.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:59:48 -0400
Message-ID: <io6e73pa0l6rq9052nj89j34mqvp9pltq8@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:31:22 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:

>Per Neon John:
>>road taxes just like everyone else.
>
>Anybody know how they're handling the mixed-mode vehicles like
>Prius?

Prius is just a gasoline fueled car with a particularly efficient electrical variable
speed transmission.  Ergo it's licensed and taxed like any other gas car.  If plug-in
hybrids ever become anything other than a boutique fringe then the tax law will have
to be revised accordingly.  Probably the easiest thing to do, at least in the
beginning, is to tack on an extra fixed fee to account for the average number of
electric miles estimated for the whole fleet of 'em.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Re: Driver ticketed for using biofuel
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:27:22 -0400
Message-ID: <j3if73125207df97oe94fec3tudmca72de@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:08:47 -0700, Anthony Matonak
<anthonym40@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>...
>> The infrastructure for a mileage-based tax is already in place in many areas in the
>> form of emission stations.  Simply require electric and other similar vehicles to get
>> an annual "emissions check" (readout of the OBDII data) which reports the mileage.
>> Set the tag renewal fee proportional to the miles reported.
>>
>> The tax rate should be set proportional to the road impact which in turn is
>> proportional to the pavement specific loading (pounds per square inch of tire contact
>> patch).  This is the basis for the current graduated tax on larger vehicles.  On this
>> basis, pure-electrics with their heavy batteries and narrow low rolling resistance
>> tires will pay a bit more per mile.
>...
>I can see where this could get complicated if you don't do all
>your driving in one state or entirely on public roads. You would
>need to keep track of which states you drove which miles and
>how much of your driving was off-road.

The off-road part is no different than today.  You can keep track of those miles,
file a refund request and get your money back (and probably get audited which'll cost
you much more than you saved) or you can run untaxed fuel.  For those whose off-road
activities are casual, most (all?) just pay the tax by buying fuel at the pump. Those
whose activities are not casual (farming, heavy equipment, reefers on trucks, etc.)
buy and use untaxed fuel.  You can buy untaxed diesel at any truck stop (select
"reefer fuel" at the pump) and you can buy untaxed diesel and gasoline at the
farmer's co-op in your area.  Of course, most folks don't bother because it's not
worth the hassle.  I DO fill my generator fuel tanks at the co-op because TN's tax is
substantial.

As far as mult-state driving goes, let's hope that the pols are rational about this
and just let one pay based on his home address with the assumption that it'll all
equalize out in the end.  God help us if we get in the same situation as the trucking
industry with the IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement).  A trucker (or his
company) has to account for miles driven in each state.  He pays at the pump plus he
pays to his home state and the money is distributed to the other states per his
report.

This is actually BETTER than it used to be just a few years ago when a trucker had to
apply to every individual state for a tax decal and pay each individually.  You might
remember seeing the so-called "bingo tags" on semis - license plate-sized metal
plates containing dozens of little tax stamps.

>
>Then again, when was any tax actually fair? Why not just add a
>road tax to all sales of electricity, vegetable oil and alcohol?

Because the washing machine, the french fryer and the boozer aren't using and
impacting roadways.  The whole idea of a use tax is to let the users pay for the
facility or service being provided.  I intentionally didn't use the word "fair"
because that word is now so overloaded with socialist crap as to be meaningless.  The
tax SHOULD be equitable.

John