Newsgroups: sci.environment,sci.energy
From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power and Climate Change
Message-ID: <a0yrjcf@dixie.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 09:56:16 GMT

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

>Diesels can burn natural gas.  (Masters Thesis in the Berkely Engineering
>Library, I don't remember the authors name, demonstrated stationary
>diesel plant on natural gas.)

One of the things I've done at several nuke plants is performance qualify
the standby diesel generators so I have quite a bit of experience with
these beasts.

A demonstration and anything in production with a proven track record
is very different.

>Diesels can come up almost instantly.

The typical tech spec for standby diesel generators is off-to-full-load
in 10 seconds.  They can - barely - but at a huge cost.  The coolant
and crankcase oil are kept at operating temperature all the time,
the fuel system is pressurized and a starting system capable of spinning
the engine to operating RPM prior to gating injection is provided.
The engines are run at least once a week not only to verify proper
operation but also to keep fresh fuel in the day tank and piping.
These system are high maintenance items.  OK for nuclear plants with
constant surveillance programs; not so hot for unmanned peaking sites.

>Diesels can power Very Large Ships.  (Pistons several feet in diameter,
>many per engine...)  Practical diesel generators can be Very Large...

But not VERY VERY large.  Combustion turbines of 100 MWE or larger
are not that uncommon.  The diesel generators at Sequoyah (largest I've seen)
were 10 MWE and required two 16 cylinder ship-type engines per generator.

John

Newsgroups: sci.environment,sci.energy
From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power and Climate Change
Message-ID: <94zr6t=@dixie.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 06:42:37 GMT

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

>>A demonstration and anything in production with a proven track record
>>is very different.

>There are also available commercial production conversion kits to
>convert a diesel to use propane and natural gas as well.  I didn't
>include this in the first post in the interests of brevity.  If you
>would like, I can post the stuff.  (I posted it once a few years ago...)

Go ahead and post.  I hope this is something mainstream and not the
diesel equivalent of some of these home-shop electric car conversions.
I'm very interested but dubious.  For the last year or so I've been
researching diesels relative to power generation because I plan on
co-generation for my house to get out from under our Plant-Vogtle inspired
electric rates using our still relatively cheap natural gas supply.

The scientific literature says basically that NG or propane can be
burned via intake introduction but that starting, particularly
in adverse conditions still requires cylinder injection of a suitably
high cetane fuel.  I picked up some SAE papers in December on the
topic.  One paper describes some recent developments on electronically
controlled direct cylinder injection for NG but it is definitely
still in the experimental stage.

John

From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,sci.energy
Subject: Re: Nuclear Power and Climate Change
Message-ID: <1993Jan12.001538.13520@michael.apple.com>
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:15:38 GMT

In article <94zr6t=@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>
>>>A demonstration and anything in production with a proven track record
>>>is very different.

>>There are also available commercial production conversion kits to
>>convert a diesel to use propane and natural gas as well.
 ...
>Go ahead and post.  I hope this is something mainstream and not the
>diesel equivalent of some of these home-shop electric car conversions.
>I'm very interested but dubious.

They are production stuff from folks who do diesel for a living.
Not whacko back room conversion sunshine uber alles stuff..  I'll
see if I can find it in The Archives ...

>For the last year or so I've been
>researching diesels relative to power generation because I plan on
>co-generation for my house to get out from under our Plant-Vogtle inspired
>electric rates using our still relatively cheap natural gas supply.
>
>The scientific literature says basically that NG or propane can be
>burned via intake introduction but that starting, particularly
>in adverse conditions still requires cylinder injection of a suitably
>high cetane fuel.

You got it.  Start on diesel.  At about 25% power, begin NG induction.
Continue to full power.  You might be able to back off the diesel to less
than 25%, but I'm not sure what the lower bound would be.  I priced a
kit about 2 years ago.  It was about $2k from a company back East.

>I picked up some SAE papers in December on the
>topic.  One paper describes some recent developments on electronically
>controlled direct cylinder injection for NG but it is definitely
>still in the experimental stage.

Right again.  Direct injection of NG is a pain, at best.

If you have a small diesel available, just start it up and set the
throtle at about 25%.  Valve some propane or NG into the air intake
and see what happens.

--

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.