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From: emory!!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Dream Garage
X-Sequence: 5431

-> Given the chance to build your own garage, what would you do?
-> Dimensions, special goodies like a mounting location for an engine
-> hoist, workbench design, stuff like that.

 I just built one last summer.  It's on a 20x35' concrete slab, framed
on 2x6s on 16" centers, ten feet tall, and uses 7-element trusses to
support the roof.  It was originally intended to be 3 cars plus a bench.
I changed it to two cars plus a work area.

 The trusses and walls freaked the building inspector (I had to get a
variance to build the freaking thing...).  You can latch onto any piece
of timber anywhere and yank a big block without even a creak.  I went a
little crazy, I guess.  Commercial trusses are put together with gang
nails.  Mine have big plywood panels on each side of each joint, held by
a handful of screws and big gobs of construction adhesive.  I even glued
and screwed the plywood sheathing onto the skeleton, though I used
ordinary nails to hold the siding on.

 Anyway, here are my ideas:

1) leave room to work!  I planned for one garage queen and one bay to
   use for maintenance, and left the rest open for future use.  This
   room has already been encroached on my an engine lathe and (as soon
   as I go get it) a milling machine.

2) Let there be light!  Use LOTS of fluorescent lights.  Switch them
   all individually to keep the light where you need it, so the power
   company doesn't have to declare a windfall profit statement.

[YES!!!!!  Spend the extra bux on high efficiency units too.  The builder
that rebuilt my house after the fire did NOT replace my lights with
high efficiency.  Ga Power paid extra dividends the first month I was
back in the house.  Over $600 on the old power bill.  Zounds!!!  I didn't
use the lights the next month and illuminated the office with a single
250 watt mercury vapor stand-light I built.  The bill was down to the
more usual $400 a month for summertime.  I'm changing the ballasts
as I can afford it.

If you can afford it and have a high ceiling, 175 watt metal-halide lamps in
broad dispersal fixtures are much cheaper to operate and the light is MUCH
nicer for working with metal.  One or two will illuminate a whole bay.  JGD]

3) make sure there's proper ventilation for painting, degreasing,
   welding, etc.

4) windows are just entry points for theives, and don't admit much
   useable light anyway

5) plan for paint or linoleum on the floor.  It'll last a lot longer
   than you think, particularly if you put some pieces of plywood down
   before you put down your car stands.  No more concrete ass from
   sliding around.

[I did my shop floors with Epoxy floor paint after the fire.  A 2
gallon set (one each of hardner and resin) cost $100 but did a whole bay.
This stuff is slicker'n greased owl snot, is resistant to every chemical
known to man and makes sliding things around feel like they are on rollers.
Awhile back I spilled a gallon of nitro on the floor.  It ran over onto the
part that was merely painted and not epoxyed.  That paint came up
right down to the concrete.  The epoxy paint wasn't even de-glossed.
An added benefit I hadn't thought of before I did the floor is that
I rarely use a creeper.  It is so slick I just slide in on my back.
Strangely enough, rubber-soled shoes get a real good grip.  JGD]

6) put in LOTS of electrical outlets - I have one every four feet,
   on two different circuits, alternating.  They're also 48" high,
   so I don't have to crawl under things to plug stuff in

7) run an air manifold - I ran 1" ID 400psi PVC pipe, with a takeoff
   every 8 feet.  That way I can use short air hoses and not have to
   trip over them all the time.

[Circle track magazine ran a piece a couple of years ago on this.  They
summarized a number of accidents caused by PVC piping that had been
weakened by stuff the air compressor had sucked in and had burst.  Apparently
the shards are hazardous.  This warning regarded ordinary PVC water pipe so
it may not be as big a concern with your system.  I found it just as cheap to
install soldered copper tubing in my shop.  I ran 1" tubing around the shop
and installed a ball valve on each tap so I could unload the hose without
having to uncouple it.  A BIG side benefit is the added volume such a system
brings to the plate.  I computed the volume of mine at about 20 gallons.
That adds a lot of reserve to my 60 gal 5 hp compressor.  I'd have run larger
pipe had I been able to buy it cheaply.  JGD]

8) run a couple of power plugs and air fittings OUTSIDE, too

9) don't forget 220v - lots of welders and most machine tools are
   switchable 110/220 or 220 only, like my compressor

10) put the compressor OUTSIDE to save your eardrums

11) intercom and remote doorbell from the house

12) mine has 5 runs of 6-conductor twisted pair, three coax lines
    (Ethernet, spare, cable TV, two phones, etc)  Also wall plates
    for all this stuff - the shop nearly has a wiring harness!

13) run a water line out if possible.  Good for washing hands, parts,
    etc.  If you can get a crapper out there, even better.  I was going
    to pass on that, but it looks like I'll be tearing and house down
    and building another one soon, so I'll be living in the shop for a

14) something STRONG to hook onto for pulling motors - I designed my
    trusses for anything, and eventually I'll have an X-Y gantry rig
    and a power winch to lift and move engines anywhere in a 20x8 area.
    I specifically did NOT want a cherry picker - they take up space,
    and your friends always want to borrow them.

15) go as large as you can possibly afford.  In my case, I ran out of
    space to build on before I ran out of ambition.  No matter how big
    it is, it'll wind up stuffed like a fat lady's suitcase.  <sigh>

-> have cost under $7000.  The traditional metal building is also fairly
-> cheap, particularly compared to traditional wood.

 That varies by region.  The best price I found for a metal building was
$9500.  I (over)built in wood for $3500.

[yep.  I live in the land of $3.95 8 ft 2X4s so metal is attractive.  JGD]

X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: Dream Garage
X-Sequence: 5445 writes:
"If you can afford it and have a high ceiling, 175 watt metal-halide lamps in
"broad dispersal fixtures are much cheaper to operate and the light is MUCH
"nicer for working with metal.  One or two will illuminate a whole bay.  JGD

do you mean 'metalarc' [scandium vapor] or tungsten-halogen?  metalarc
lamps have efficiency and life comparable to mercury- and
sodium-vapor though more expensive, but THE BEST color rendition -
better than tungsten and comparable to daylight.

[Yes, the metal-arc tubes, not sodium vapor or Quartz-halogen  JGD]

From: emory!!mwbg9715 (Mark Wayne Blunier)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: Dream Garage Bits
X-Sequence: 5452 (The Hotrod List) writes:

>  Thanks to all and sundry for the suggestions and observations wrt
>garage tips.  I'm saving it all for posterity, now let's hope I can
>come up with something presentable for the county inspector.  Keep
>them coming!

I haven't read any comments rerarding pits.  It would seem that having
a pit so that you could work below the car without using a jack would
be useful.  Any good reasons not to have a pit?

Mark W. Blunier

[only reason I can think of is getting a lift instead :-)  Having worked
under both, I'd take a lift any day over a pit but lacking the $$$$$
for one, a pit will do just fine, thankyoujustthesame.  :-)

If your county prick, er, I mean, county inspector is anything like mine,
the pit is probably something you'll have to add after the fact.  If
you get a bunch of crap, perhaps you could excavate the pit, cover it,
pour the slab and after inspection, cut the slab out over the hole.  JGD]

From: TIMOTHY COLLINS <emory!!thcollin>
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Garage safety
X-Sequence: 5454

:I haven't read any comments rerarding pits.  It would seem that having
:a pit so that you could work below the car without using a jack would
:be useful.  Any good reasons not to have a pit?
:Mark W. Blunier

:[only reason I can think of is getting a lift instead :-)  Having worked
:under both, I'd take a lift any day over a pit but lacking the $$$$$
:for one, a pit will do just fine, thankyoujustthesame.  :-)

I would ask you to consider the potential problem of a pit
filling with a heavier than air solvent. An explosion could
easily occur. In the interest of safety, think about possible
explosion/fire problems in your garage area. Solvent, paint
storage should be well thought out. If in a cold climate what
about your heat source...any open flames?

Also I read earlier about copper lines for an air compressor
system. I believe that copper is not allowed for high pressure in
all states. I think the problem has to do with creep at the
soldered joints. (The joint slides apart over time under the
influence of high pressure. Your *friendly* building inspector
should be able to tell you if copper is ok)

[I have a bit of a problem believing copper/hard soldered piping will
have any problem with any pressure under 200 psi.  My air compressor
has an upper setpoint of 175 psi.  My static water pressure is
150 psi as measured by a gauge on a spigot.  That doesn't count
the pretty severe water hammer that results from the 1/8 mile long
line from the street to the house.  The water piping is >25 years
old.  My Machinist Handbook didn't have any rating for copper pipe
but 1" sched 40 pvc pipe is rated for 220 psi service.  The reason
I use copper is that if it were to burst for some reason, it won't
generate shrapnel.  Hell, I couldn't get it to make shrapnel when used
as a pipe bomb (I didn't say that! :-)  I'm not disputing what you
say regarding inspectors. I've seen crazier things from 'em.  JGD]

Hey, it's nice to live in Upper the wilderness. No
problems with wierd zoning laws. No one ever checks my cars for
emissions, etc. It's just too cold to work in the garage in the
Tim Collins
Say ya to da U.P. eh!

From: emory!!rlr (Powdered Toast Man)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: Dream Garage Bits
X-Sequence: 5457

> Any good reasons not to have a pit?

  Back in L.A. (yeah, I know, bad example bringing up the People's Republic
Of California ;) I remember the city inspectors giving my Grandma's next-
door neighbor a load of shit about his little ancient one car garage.  It
had a pit right in the center, which must have been put in when the place
was built.

  Their excuse for the weed up their collective ass was "fire danger."
Which, when you think about it, seems like a plausible problem.  One
easily overcome in my mind:  just make the pit long enough so that you
can escape the flames next time you drop that lit cigar in the can
of gas you were using to clean your wheel bearings ;) .

[Yep or a simple exhaust fan.  Probably not a bad idea anyway so that
fumes don't cause those lovely headaches.  JGD]

  Heck, if those chuckleheads at Jiffy Lube can build an entire business
around a garage with a pit, seems to me Joe Shadetree can make life working
under his cars a little easier.  I have no idea what my local building
codes say about the matter.

  Anybody have any experience with drive-on ramps?  Seems to me they wouldn't
be difficult to build.

  Ron "Yeah, But I'd Rather Have A Lift Anyway" Rader

From: emory!!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: May 1993
Subject: Re: Dream Garage Bits
X-Sequence: 5479

-> floor & the strip along the wall.  Any shelves & cabinets would be on
-> longer legs to clear that area.  Then I can concievably clean (sweep,

 No shelves!  Down with shelves!  Shelves suck!

 Put doors on them all, and turn them into cabinets.  It's a whole lot
easier to keep clean, gives you a place to put your beer ads and nudie
pictures, and keeps your good stuff out of sight so your friends don't
walk off with it.

[:-)  AMEN!  Plus things in cabinets survive fires better, as I learned
from mine.  What he really needs to do is design the place to what in
the food business is called CIP (clean in place), that is, built to be
hosed down.  My stall is semi-CIP now.  I don't have waterproof walls
yet but they still withstand a quick sweep with the high pressure
car wash wand.  Being able to hose the whole place down is VERY nice
when you need a clean environment for painting or engine assembly.  JGD]

From: emory!!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Sep 1993
Subject: Dream Garage
X-Sequence: 6349

I'm only two weeks away from getting my dream garage!

[Hey, congrats!]

It's a two-thousand square foot shop, concrete floor, complete with
hydraulic lift, security system, etc.  I can't wait!

Anyway, I want to paint the concrete floor like those Winston Cup
shops I've seen on TV.  I got some recommendations from my friends at
Datsun Dynamics.  I know I need to steam-clean, acid-wash, and
steam-clean the floor again before I try to paint it, and I'm going to
start calling some industrial paint companies.

I was wondering:

1) Has anyone on the list done the acid washing yourself?  Is it
dangerous and difficult, best left to a pro?

2) Any good or bad experiences with any brands or types of paint?

[Nothing to acid washing and it is not hazardous as long as you wear
appropriate clothing (rain suit, rubber boots and gloves) and use
adequate ventillation.  I don't think it is necessary.  After my fire, I
painted my shop floor with Sherwin-Williams epoxy paint.  About $100 for
a 2 gallon set.  This set covers about a 12X20 foot area.  The
instructions indicated no treatment other than degreasing old concrete
to be necessary.  I didn't even do that.  I simply pressure-washed my
floor to remove the old, very eroded enamel paint and then applied it
with a roller.  It dries overnight and is cured hard in a week.  It has
a beautiful gloss!  JGD]

3) Should I put grit it the paint for better traction?  Or does
this destroy the easy cleanup properties of the paint?

[Don't ruin it!!!  This finish is beautiful for working on.  Slick when
wet or oily but no more than regular cement.  BUT metal objects slide with
the greatest of ease.  I can sling my jack around with one hand.  I don't
even bother with a creeper anymore because a) the floor stays so clean
with only an occasional pressure washing and b) it is so slick, I can
slide easier than I can mess with a creeper.  An engine hoist can be
positioned with one hand even with an engine on it.  And to move an (Datsun
Z) engine, I just sit it on the oil pan and push.  It's really hard to put
into words how this coating has changed the whole character of the shop.



| Bob Wise          | INET:622-1322 | MCIMail:468-2222 | Pager:719-577-1928 |
| Unix Consultant   |-------------------------------------------------------|
| Consultant to MCI | Phone:719-535-1322 | |

From: emory!!paraska (Pete Paraska)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Sep 1993
Subject: Re: Dream Garage
X-Sequence: 6394

In article <> (The Hotrod List) writes:

>Just a short follow-up to John's reponse. I just painted my garage floor
>last week. I followed John's recommendation and applied the Sherwin-Williams
>2-part system (it's called Tile Clad II btw). I detergent scrubbed the flr
>first, and followed that with an acid etch using all the precautions
>John has already mentioned. No problems and the stuff is every bit as
>good as John said.

O.K. you guys.  I was about to seal my garage floor with an industrial
warehouse curing agent/sealer that has a 5 year dustless warranty.

The reason I stayed away from the paints is that alot of the responses I got
to my request for advice on cement floor treatments a few weeks ago said
that the epoxy and latex paints:

  1) Are VERY slippery and dangerous when wet,

[Heck, they are slippery when DRY.  I consider that a major attribute.
Personal choice, of course but I'd rather the floor be real slick and
have to pay attention when it is wet rather than being rough but requiring
great effort to move anything about.  JGD]

  2) tend to scar and peel under high local pressure such as floor jack
metal wheels and jack stands.

[No.  Jackstands don't even scar it.  I have dug an oil plug into
the paint while sliding an engine across the floor.  It brought up
a little curly-q of paint but it did not break through to the cement
and did not flake.  JGD]

I'd like to know whether the Sherwin-Williams 2-part Tile Clad II paint has
these attributes.  I was getting ready to put the stuff down this weekend
but I'm now considering the Sherwin-Williams stuff now.

| Pete Paraska       ( |
| David Taylor Model Basin, CARDEROCKDIV         |

From: emory!!rmwise (Bob_Wise)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Sep 1993
Subject: Dream Garage, again
X-Sequence: 6525

Two items:

1) Well, I went out and spent the $300+ on the Sherwin-Williams Tile-Clad
   II, based on recommendations from this group.

   The store I bought it from recommended four kits (8 gallons total) to
   cover 2000sq.ft.  The SW tech book recommended 7mil thickness.  The
   paint store was unable to give me good guidance about how thick the
   paint would end up if I rolled it on like I am planning to do.

   Can anybody who has used this stuff tell me if they used one coat or
   two?  Rolled on, sprayed on?  Will eight gallons be enough?

[My two gallon kit covered a stall 21' X 15 and another area 17' X 8'.
I rolled it on with a paint roller.  Single coat.  No primer.  I
simply high pressure washed the surface to remove the old paint,
let it dry for a few days and then painted.  JGD]

From: emory!!dave.williams (Dave Williams)
X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing list
Date: Apr 1994
Subject: Plumbing my shop for air - questions on tubing
X-Sequence: 8401

-> It's getting to the time when I am going to plumb my garage/shop for
-> the air compresser (I don't have the compressor yet.)  I am wondering
-> what type of tubing is best to use and what the best method of
-> joining the joints together is?  I'm probably going to plumb it all
-> in behind the drywall, so looks aren't that important. :) :)

 My compressor is in a shed outside the shop so I don't have to listen
to it hammering away.  The shop is plumbed with 1" PVC pipe, which is
rated at 400 PSI.  The compressor puts out 120.

 After I had bored holes in the studs and run the pipe, I was told by
many people (indeed, it was in the Campbell-Hausfeld manual too, but as
Xaviera Hollander mentioned, Americans seldom read owners' manuals)  not
to use plastic pipe.  Evidently *if* the pipe were to rupture (vibration
cracking, bad pipe or joint) little pieces of plastic could fly about,
possibly putting out an eye.  Since I have insulation and drywall over
it all I'm not worried about it any.  If you have any concern, plain old
copper tubing isn't much more expensive, though you'll have to sweat the
fittings on.

 I started about 4 feet up on the far wall, sloping down to 24" 65 feet
(3 walls) later.  The air outlets are all about 5 feet up, 6 feet apart
(some of 'em don't have chucks yet, but I can just unscrew the plugs and
add them later).  The outlets are on risers above the main line, all the
outlets are 5' up even though the main slopes.  This is to make damned
sure I don't get condensation problems.  The bottom end of the main goes
outside the wall by the entry door, with a water valve - each day I
crack the valve and bleed off any water.  You have to remember I live in
a swamp.

 There's an air fitting in the shed in case I want to take apart an
engine there or something, and one outside by Bay 1's door so I can pump
up a tire outside.

 One thing I ran into is, when you plug a flexible hose into one of the
chucks, you can put a lot of stress on the plastic pipe if you tug on
the hose.  Make sure the pipe is securely braced right up by the chuck.

 I need to put a remote drain on the compressor's tank - laying on the
floor to pull the plug is stupid.  It'd also be real nice to be able to
turn the compressor on and off from inside the shop, rather than
unlocking the shed and flipping the switch.  I'll work on that someday.
Right now I'm shickled titless I have air at all.

[There have been several warnings in the racing magazines about people
being injured when plastic pipe burst.  The pieces make good shrapnel.
The problem is, anything in the air gets compressed and concentrated
and many solvents attack plastic pipe. The soft pipe can rupture even
when not subject to excessive vibration.  Since liquids tend to collect
at the bottom of the piping, the blowout tends to be from the bottom -
right at the people below.  Copper is almost as cheap and almost as
easy to install so I can't see the rationale for plastic.  One nice
thing about using copper is that the final elbow can be one of those
combination elbows and anchors designed to anchor a faucet to the wall.
This takes all the strain off the piping from pushing hoses into
the quick-couplings.

A couple of things I've added beyond your installation.  I have a ball
valve on each of the connectors in my shop.  They only cost about $5 and
they let me turn the air off to a hose without having to unplug it.
Hoses last a lot longer that way.  I also added a solenoid valve to the
outlet connection on the compressor so I can isolate the whole system
without having to go outside.  I have some small amount of residual
paranoia that something would blow out while I'm on a trip and my
compressor would run for several days and I'd have to hock my wife to
pay the bill.  So I isolate the piping system when I'm not actively
using air.  I also piped in regulators adjacent to the normal connectors
at a couple of strategic places.  Handy to be able to plug in the
paint gun without having to scrounge for a regulator.

I've piped everywhere in my house and shop including the kitchen.
You'd be surprised how handy compressed air can be in the kitchen :-)

Oh yeah, if you have a neighbor you don't like, put the compressor
on that side of the house :-)  JGD]

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