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From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Message-ID: <>
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 06:46:19 -0500

You're arguing with the enemy.  He's part of the fee grabbing
apparachick.  Look at his web site.  He sells (or sold) traffic
control equipment.

BTW, whomever reported on Chattanooga's situation got it almost right.
There's not a quota per se.  But promotions are based on points
accumulated by writing tickets, among other things.  This is apt to
make the cops even more ticket-happy than a mere quota.

This isn't the first time for chatta.  A few years ago my wife
experienced this fine system that Wolf so defends.  She got a ticket
for speeding in a school zone.  Problem was, she was sitting
stock-still in a traffic jam.  Seems this semi-literate school
crossing nazi just went down the line writing tickets to collect
points.  All the tickets were thrown out but it did cost her and me a
day off from work.


On Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:45:16 -0600, "telestar" <>

>It is perfectly acceptable to post information about speed traps on this
>newsgroup. You should be interested unless you have found some novel way of
>transporting your rv that doesn't involve the roadways. And I don't want ot
>hear your socialist whinning that we must follow all speed laws whether
>illegal or rediculous or not.
>"Steve Wolf" <> wrote in message
>> Again, whine all you want here but for cripes sake, you have a forum to
>> debate AND CHANGE your issue.  Go, get off your a$$ and get it changed.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:09:48 -0500

On Tue, 02 Apr 2002 23:48:20 -0500, bill horne <> wrote:

>This is not news, but I drive 8 over nearly everywhere. The last time I
>got a ticket for 8 over was in Texas in the 70's. If a speeding ticket
>every 25 years or so is the price I must pay to be completely
>unconcerned about cops or speed traps, then it's worth it to me - even
>if it should mean a ticket every 10 years.

Unfortunately, Bill, it's no longer that simple.  With the widespread
police corruption and the official wink, wink, nod, nod, an encounter
with the local gestapo is likely to be more unpleasant than a mere tax
on driving fast.

One of the more popular schemes, so my lawyer tells me, is to use a
drug dog trained to mark on command as an excuse to get in your
vehicle, whereupon the cops either steal what they like or plant dope
if they don't find anything interesting.

I got caught up in just such an operation last year in Knoxville, TN.
I was headed over to the NC coast to a shooting match with a friend in
the MH when I got stopped, allegedly for doing 68 in a 55 zone.
Fortunately for me I not only had a witness but also a GPS track log
proving otherwise.  The pigs had this act choreographed to the second.
Almost the instant the pig gave me the speeding ticket, his accomplice
showed up with the drug dog.  The dog never got within 20 feet of my
rig but the dog cop claimed that it marked.  On my propane tank.

That gave them the excuse to search my rig, tearing it apart in the
process.  Of course they never looked at the propane tank.  They
dumped water in my waterproof gun cases (something I didn't catch
until after my match pistols were rusted), tore off cabinet doors,
stole $200 in emergency funds I had stashed behind a cabinet and stole
a pistol.  Then, even though the firearms were in the extreme rear of
the motorhome, locked in the bathroom, they cited me for illegal carry
to cover their tracks.  What was very interesting was to see all the
places they DIDN'T look, including the 'fridge and most of the
cabinets.  Looks like they searched until they found the money and
then quit.

Funny thing happened on the way to court.  They didn't bother to file
a report.  After some poking around by my lawyer, armed with the
serial number of the pistol, it suddenly turned up in the evidence
locker and was returned.  Unfortunately I didn't have the serial
numbers on my money.

Of course, the citations were tossed.  Invalid on their faces.  But it
cost me $2500 in legal fees plus the $200 plus several thousand $$$ in
ruined firearms.

Seems that I'm one of many victims of Knoxville.  There are several
huge federal class action civil rights suits underway against
knoxville over this tactic.  We're now trying to decide whether to
join one of the class actions or to sue independently.  9/11 has
complicated things because we're now supposed to tolerate any level of
police abuse in the name of fighting terrorism.  Before 9/11, my
lawyer had given me about a 95% chance of winning.  Now it's 50-50 at

My lawyer told me something else interesting.  Seems this Knoxville
mafia in blue is concentrating on RVs.  The theory is that there's
more stuff to steal in an RV plus if they either find some contraband
or decide to plant some, the subsequent theft by civil forfeiture is a
much larger score than a simple car.

In the RV I don't speed and use my GPS to verify my speed.  Before
this experience, I figured that would be enough to avoid any hassles
with the pigs.  I was wrong, of course.  I was simply fortunate that I
had a non-related passenger and that I was playing around with a GPS
logging program that night.  Nowadays I run the logging program ALL
the time and am seriously thinking about putting a police-style in-car
camera system in my rig so as to help protect myself against these
thieves.  First time I find a used system for sale cheap I probably

Quite amazing, isn't it, that this sort of thing is happening in this
country.  Of course, since 9/11, people can't hand over their
liberties fast enough.  Sad, very sad.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 03:29:48 -0500

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 00:04:18 GMT, "Steph and Dud B."
<> wrote:

>"Pigs"?  Wow, groovy man!  I'm gonna have a love-in to protest all the bad
>things The Man does - like running into a burning skyscraper and evacuating
>people until the building falls on them.  The bastards!

Well if those cops had been stealing from citizens under color of
authority, then yes, they are pigs.

Obviously you have no concept of how corrupt some segments of law
enforcement are.  With your attitude, it would personally do me good
to hear that you'd been shown the difference on the side of the road
in Knoxville or some place similar.

BTW, Dudley (what kind of dipshit name is that, anyway?), I have a
field deputy's badge in my wallet.  Since you know nothing about
police, I'll educate before you ask, a field deputy is a sworn but
unpaid cop who volunteers his time.  I've done that off and on since I
was a teenager.  "off" when a particularly corrupt administration was
in office, "on" when a new sheriff cleaned things up again.  We do
paperwork, ride right seat with paid deputies and otherwise generally
help out around the office.  Most of us are professionals.  One of the
most valuable things we do is moderate the behavior of the young turks
who are typically just out of the military (MPs) and view the world as
"us" and "perps".

As naive and ignorant as you appear be about this, Dudley, you just
don't have any idea of the ways corrupt pigs can get you.  A whole
bunch of cops I know carry throw down weapons of some sort.  I know of
some who carry contraband to plant on "perps" they don't like.  I know
of a couple who sell pornographic materials from their vehicles.  From
what I gather, this is typical.

And no, before you ask, I have absolutely no intention of bedimming a
snitch.  It's way too big for one individual and I don't want to get
harnessed out of town.

So in summary, Dudley, when I use the term Pig, I use it with great


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:04:45 -0500

On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 20:58:41 -0500, Sandy A. Nicolaysen
<> wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 07:09:48 -0500, Neon John
><> wrote:
><good story snipped for brevity>
>>Nowadays I run the logging program ALL
>>the time and am seriously thinking about putting a police-style in-car
>>camera system in my rig so as to help protect myself against these
>>thieves.  First time I find a used system for sale cheap I probably
>John:  I installed my own video system after being a victim of road
>rage here in NJ.  The way the law works here is that the largest
>vehicle is ALWAYS guilty.  Just because a Peterbilt toting 96,000 lbs
>can't stop on a dime like a Honda Civic is no excuse.
>I'm lucky not to have been involved in an incident since, but the
>video has helped prove two cases involving other drivers when I had
>been a bystander.
>PC cameras are dirt cheap, free with a rebate.  Diskless PCs are
>available very cheap (~$200) and are the size of a cable converter
>box.  Power usage for mine is 8 watts.  Disk-on-a-chip records 1/2
>hour of video and loops like an 8-track tape of yesteryear.  No moving
>parts means no problems with vibration, heat, wear, etc.

I had already thought of this and discussed the concept with my
lawyer.  The problem is proving the chain of custody of your recording
as evidence and validating same.  While your system would be useful
for dealing with minor infractions and would probably be a terrific
deterrent if the pig knows it's there, if you are ever REALLY screwed,
say with felony drug possession from a plant, your recording might not
even make it to court.  You simply can't prove that you or someone
else hasn't tampered with it.

The police systems are designed to preserve the chain of custody in a
court-approved manner.  The recorder is locked and optionally sealed
in a tamper-resistant box.  The cop can typically start and stop the
recording and maybe mute the microphone.  But assuming department
policy precludes him having a key to his own strong box, he cannot
tamper or access the recorder or tape.  In our department, if anything
more serious than traffic stops happens on a patrol, someone besides
the cop removes the tape and seals it in an evidence envelope and
checks it into the evidence locker, preserving the chain of evidence.

The next issue is the doctrine of "presumed correct" and "presumed
truthful".  The court presumes the police recorder is accurate and if
the chain of custody has remained intact, the recording is also
presumed correct.  This is the same doctrine that makes it so
difficult to challenge radar.  It is presumed to be accurate.  Video
tape is a medium the court is comfortable with and understands.  Your
solid state recording is not.  You'd face very steep obstacles in
getting it accepted as evidence.

My lawyer advised me that if I installed such a system to a) use a
police system, b) lock AND tamper-seal the strong-box using lead seals
or equiv, c) leave the key at home and if I ever encounter
malfeasance, do all I can to preserve the integrity of the evidence.
He said that if my vehicle was impounded, the strongbox could only be
opened with a warrant.  Compromising the tape under those
circumstances would require a widespread conspiracy much greater than
a couple of rogue cops on traffic patrol.

He advised me that if my vehicle was NOT impounded, to get to an
officer of the court (normally a lawyer) or other sworn agent (such as
a federal agent) as fast as possible and let him break the seal and
take custody of the tape.  Having to drill the lock is much preferable
to having a key that would open the strong box.  A lawyer, as an
officer of the court, is an extension thereof and can preserve the
chain of custody of the evidence tape.  He said that if this happens
at night, to find a phone book and start calling until I find a
criminal law firm that maintains 24hr coverage.  It's that important.
If a pig plants felony evidence on you, you'd going to need all the
horsepower you can muster and you're going to have to cross all the
tees and dot all the "i"s.

Before this happened to me I knew that cops planted evidence and stole
stuff.  Heck, I've heard 'em swapping techniques.  But I always
figured it happened to the longhairhippyfreaks, the type that just
look like they needed rousting.  I didn't realize (but should have)
that the objective in many cases has changed from "getting" someone to
simple theft, personal enrichment.

Once the objective becomes common theft, it makes sense that they'd go
after ordinary people, for they're more likely to have things to steal
than would the freaks.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 21:22:36 -0500

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 17:18:21 GMT, Paul Hutmacher <> wrote:

>Will Sill <> wrote in news:peeraug4qsn1u8h00rfgjbiuted6tnf4r7@
>> What I object to is the absolutely visious characterization of police
>> as "pigs".
>I'm offended by this statement as well.  I am a firm believer in due
>process and personal freedom and like anyone else am outraged when I hear
>of police abuse.  However the sweeping generalization and name calling is

Must be a reading comprehension thing.  I distinguish between cops and pigs.
I shouldn't have to spell out the difference.  Unfortunately the ratio of pigs
to cops is getting mighty large anymore.

Some Famous Person made the comment that the problem with law enforcement is
that it attracts exactly the wrong kind of control freak person.  In other
words, if you WANT to be a cop, you're probably going to be a bad cop.

It was bad before but it has gotten terrible with the militarization of the
police in the last decade or so.  A lot of the cops, especially the young
ones, forget that they're not in the military and civilians are neither the
enemy nor someone to control according to whim.

BTW, one of my competition (I own a BBQ restaurant in case you didn't know) is
a place called "Two Pigs BBQ".  Owned by, you guessed it, two cops.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 21:27:29 -0500

On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 19:50:24 -0600, "telestar" <> wrote:

>I had a former Sheriff tell me that the worst crooks made the best cops.

Funny you'd say that.  I have a very good friend who is the Chief of Police in
a neighboring town.  He says pretty much the same thing.  One very interesting
thing about his department.  He has the county dispatch frequency on their
radio console.  He has a standing order that anytime a county car is
dispatched to anywhere in his city, a city car will also be dispatched.  The
purpose of the city car is NOT to back up the county car but to make sure the
county cop doesn't abuse anyone involved.  The county department is THAT bad.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 21:50:27 -0500

On Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:20:04 GMT, "Steph and Dud B." <>

>"Neon John" <> wrote in message
>> Obviously you have no concept of how corrupt some segments of law
>> enforcement are.  With your attitude, it would personally do me good
>> to hear that you'd been shown the difference on the side of the road
>> in Knoxville or some place similar.
>Gee, John.  Thanks for the education.

You're welcome.  You certainly need it.

>Although I wan't a cop, I worked on
>the highways with Troop H of the CT State Police for a few years in my role
>with an emergency roadside service ("Samaritan Van" for you east coasters -
>we would patrol during rush hours and respond to accidents, breakdowns, and
>fires).  I had a police radio in my van - given to me by the troop - and my
>SP callsign was 2609.  I answered to the SP dispatcher.  I worked with the
>troopers every day and got to know them pretty well.  My boss was a retired

And being a broom handler has to do with what in this conversation?  You're
not really trying to convince anyone that the pigs would set up a roust over
the radio, are you?

BTW, there's little debate around these parts that troopers are a BIG cut
above the city and county cops.  But since we weren't talking about state
troopers, nothing you've said to date has any relevance.

>>I have a
>> field deputy's badge in my wallet.  Since you know nothing about
>> police, I'll educate before you ask, a field deputy is a sworn but
>> unpaid cop who volunteers his time.  I've done that off and on since I
>> was a teenager.
>I know precisely what a "field deputy" is.  Here they are called "auxies" or
>auxilliary troopers.  They are allowed to direct traffic, transport
>evidence, etc. but leave most of the real work to the real troopers.

Just shows what you don't know.  The Auxiliary is with the city department and
they are pretty much what you describe.  Field deputies are deputized, sworn,
bonded and insured just like the salaried ones.  I have full arrest powers
when I'm on duty and I carry a gun.  The only thing I can't do is drive the
patrol car and that's only because I have not gone to driving school to be
certified.  The sheriff in this state can point at anyone, tell him to raise
his right hand and after he takes the oath, he is a deputy.  It used to be
just about that loose but in recent years it has been tightened up with the
field deputy program.

>I have a badge too, except it says FD instead of PD.  I also recognize that
>there is a world of difference between a volly firefighter (like myself) and
>a paid firefighter - just like there is a difference between a "field
>deputy" and the real thing.

Well come on over and I'll put you to work fetching coffee.  I'm also the
county Radiological Response Chief with our county Emergency Management
Agency.  We respond to anything that might involve radioactive materials.

Sounds like you live in a real backwoods.  Here, the county FD is volunteer.
It is better equipped than the paid city department and the men are as well
trained because they train side-by-side with the city in the metro training
command.  We maintain a minimal crew at the stations 24 hrs a day just like
the city does.  Our ISO rating for the 5 mile fringe area (essentially all the
county) is only 2 points less than the city and that's only because VFDs
automatically take a 1 point hit and because E911 hasn't been implemented
county-wide yet.

I can't express the respect I have for these guys.  They're all working what
amounts to a second full time job but with no pay.

And to think they claim the South is backwards.  What kind of podunk backwater
do you live in, anyway?

>You're too funny to plonk.

What?  And cut off your continuing education?  Not a chance.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: The Pigs and You (was Re: NOTICE TENNESSEE SPEED TRAP)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 22:00:55 -0500

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:48:56 -0500, Sandy A. Nicolaysen <>

>John: Thanks for the info.  Very interesting.  I guess you need
>bullet-proof evidence when dealing with corrupt police.  This makes me
>wonder if they would throw out your GPS log as unsecured evidence
>prone to modification after the fact.

The burden of proof would be very high for me.  In my case, the GPS data was
used in a different way.  My attorney simply took a printout and went to the
ADA and said "Look what we're going to hit you with if you prosecute this
case".  ADA took a look and dropped the case.  That was quite critical, for
without a valid reason to stop me, they had no probable cause for any of the
rest.  The GPS data is also quite valuable for the civil case where the rules
of evidence are quite a bit more relaxed.

My attorney was the top-rated criminal defense attorney in Knox.  He's
probably seen it all and probably was being overly conservative with his
advice.  Nonetheless I'm taking it to heart.  I see the police video systems
at hamfests fairly often in the $2-300 range.  Rather than take a chance, I'm
going to do it his way :-)

>In my case as a bystander, i.e. unbiased third party, I had to swear
>under oath that I had no business or personal ties to Ms Thompson
>(Honda Civic) or J. B. Hunt and Mr Munoz (Peterbilt).  Even though Ms
>Thompson suffered permanent disabilities (frankly, damn lucky to be
>alive) the court found her guilty of causing the accident.  J. B.
>Hunt's lawyers later admitted that, without the video evidence, they
>probably would have lost the case.  As far as the evidence was
>concerned in that incident, I had handed my box over to the officer at
>the scene of the accident at his request.  That would not have helped
>you in your situation as I'm sure they would 'lose' it somehow.

yep.  My pistol was "lost" for several days until my attorney started making
noises about calling a friend at BATF to see if the feds would be interested
in investigating the theft of a firearm.  Then it suddenly turned up, complete
with the proper paperwork.  That says something in and of itself.  I have the
evidence envelope framed, just to remind me not to get complacent.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: OT Elitism
Message-ID: <>
Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 03:47:07 -0400

On Fri, 05 Apr 2002 19:14:34 GMT, Mary Murray <> wrote:

>"longhairhippyfreaks, the type that just look like they needed rousting"

Just to set the record straight, something that would be obvious had you not
taken it out of context, is that I was criticizing cops who have that

Now back to the main issue...

>The quotes above were gleaned from Neon John today. Don and I have lost
>a lot of respect for John.

I will try to say this as un-elitist as I can.  Remind me again why I should
care?  As Don said, you learn from my posts and not vice versa.  With the
notable exception of Chris (who I now ask directly), it has been years since I
learned anything about RVing from this group.  My give-to-get ratio from this
group has approached infinity.  Which is why I've just about stopped posting
anything meaningful.  After all, if I'm not respected, why should I waste my
time researching and answering your questions?

This seems to be a manifestation of the much larger problem with society at
large, that the receivers of free stuff have some sort of right of control.
Or to use a blue collar term, "y'all bitch about a free lunch."  Of course,
with both government and the media promoting the "free lunch" as a way of
life, no wonder.

Actually the emotion I was feeling when I wrote that was not elitism but
instead utter contempt for a large segment of this group.  One need only look
at the Usenet posting statistics for the top posters to know who I'm talking
about.  Between the mindless off topic prattle and the equally mindless
off-topic political excretions, there's not much left of this group to care
about.  Prodding the mass of ooze to see where the stink bubbles erupt IS

>Seems to be a bit of a bigot, categorizing
>people in this fashion. I have no degree, but I know how to treat
>diverse people. Another thing I know is respect is earned, not conferred
>by a degree.

I absolutely agree with the last part.  Which is why you've never seen me say
a word about my education and little about my background. Frankly, about the
only thing I've ever used that I learned in school is basic algebra.  Like
most engineers, I almost immediately moved outside my nominal discipline
which, of course, required me to retrain myself.  I think I've established my
credentials, to my satisfaction at least.  After all, if I hadn't, you
wouldn't say you'd learned from me!

>You might be surprised how many blue collar workers have

Actually I wouldn't.  I've had any number of professionals work for me in the
crafts crews.  They're instantly identifiable.  They present themselves and
work in a completely professional manner even if the work is of a blue collar
nature.  I've had many discussions with these folks and almost to a person,
they say that they dropped down to the crafts so that they could mentally idle
for a few years after burning out in their profession.  Also the reason I own
a number of "blue collar" businesses right now.  In short, driving nails or
stringing wire does not DEMAND that one act blue collar.

>Don has this to say,
> I have respected John's advice and opinions as far as electrical
>issues. I also UNDERSTAND what he has to say, be it metal working,
>electrical or other technical topic. I have no degree, however I have
>worked as a blue collar type for 30 years for our local power company.
>As an apprentice lineman, lineman, and line foreman for 6 years until I
>couldn't stand the bureaucracy and dealing with incompetent management
>and took a job working by myself as a troubleshooter. As a foreman, I
>would receive job packages from EEs and call them out to the job-site
>and show them how their plan wouldn't work. They would ask me how I
>would do it and I would tell them. The next day I'd get a job package
>back with all my changes included. After about 6 months of this I told
>them for their paycheck I'd tell them how to fix the job. Being
>"educated" doesn't automatically make you smarter or better than others.

I always get a kick out of this.  The crafts find something minor wrong with a
set of prints and in a highly superior voice declare themselves equal to or
better than the "stupid engineers".  Coming up through the ranks (started out
as a heavy equipment greaser) and spending most of my career in the electric
utility biz and still consulting on an occasional basis, I heard that trash
talk a lot.  One of my best friends is a line foreman.  He also may be the
only line foreman who doesn't talk that trash anymore.

The reason is simple.  One day he came in and was bitching about the engineers
(actually design technicians.) I asked him to tell me who designed the grid.
The generators.  The power houses.  The boilers.  Even the poles and
insulators they put up.  Obviously engineers.  I then asked him if he thought
he could do a better job.  He admitted the obvious, that he could not.

I then asked him which way he'd like it to be.  On one hand, they could
engineer each job down to the nut and bolt level and leave the linemen no
latitude.  On the other, they could engineer it to a necessary and leave the
implementation details to the line crew.  I knew I would hit a home run with
that one because having been an IBEW member, I knew that this is a big thing
with them and I also knew he is the job steward in addition to being a
foreman.  He of course admitted the latter.  So then I asked why he would
bitch when he received a "typical" plan and is allowed to make field changes
as necessary.  Wouldn't he prefer to have that level of independence? I think
I actually saw the mental lightbulb come on.

It's unfortunate but typical to see "Bob" talking that blue collar trash talk.
That kind of talk is invariably highly career-limiting.

BTW, the way it works in many places and almost invariably with utility work
is that the field prints are NOT prepared by engineers.  Engineers write the
specs and usually check the finished drawings but the work of actually
preparing the prints is done by designers.  They may but usually don't have
degrees.  Some are good, some are bad.  Just like linemen.  So in the interest
of strict accuracy, Bob should say "designer" instead of "engineer" when he

Frankly, I don't think any of us could afford electricity if the utilities
hired enough engineers to actually engineer every pole and pad.  The system as
it is works pretty well, I think.
Wouldn't you agree?

>Mary and Don, who both look like "longhairhippyfreaks"

Better hope that the cops you run into all think like me then or else you're
in for a bunch of roustings.  Not that I approve - It's just that I believe
that in the US one has the absolute right to look absolutely stupid without
government interference.

So to summarize, your respect is of no concern to me.  You have no standing
either way.  I would, however, ask that if in your chest thumping your are
sincere about the respect thing, you will NOT read my posts and so benefit
from my knowledge and experience.  After all, it just wouldn't be right for
you to take free advice from someone you don't respect.  Agreed?  Do you need
for me tell you how to use a kill file?

Coffee break's over; back on your heads!


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal Records & Travelers Advisory for US Citizens Going to 
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:14:28 -0400

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:43:06 -0400, Vito <> wrote:

>A friends son borrowed his dad's car. When stopped for a traffic
>violation, police spotted his dad's pistol in the glove box and arrested
>him. It is legal for his dad to have the gun but not a teen so the case
>was dismissed because the kid hadn't known dad'd left it in the car. End
>of story? Not quite! Eight years later (Now 23) the boy gets stopped
>again in an adjacent state and guess what - police run a *routine* check
>then do a major search of his car, probable cause being his "previous
>weapons violation".
>Since a juvenile charge that was dropped by a judge showed up 8 years
>later in another state, I have to believe that these poor peoples' 'drug
>charges' are still in their records.

You are correct.  I have posted here about my "Stop'n'Rob" experience in
Knoxville, TN.  That was where I was stopped in my MH on a made-up speeding
charge, my motorhome was torn up, stole a target pistol (in the back of the
MH), water poured over my other match pistols, and $200 in emergency cash
stolen and then I was charged with carrying a concealed weapon in the cops'
attempt to cover themselves.

Interestingly enough, the cops never filed a report, having gotten what they
wanted, the money and the gun.  The DA dropped the charge without any court
action.  Under threat of bringing in the feds, my pistol somehow reappeared,
as if by magic, but my money was gone for good.

 HOWEVER, I had to file a separate action, called an "expungment motion", to
get the arrest expunged.  It took a judge's order to do so.  My attorney
advised me to have the NCIC checked in a year or so, as these things have a
tendency to reappear, again, as if by magic.

Nowadays, it seems, any contact with the cops ends up on NCIC in what amounts
to compiling dossiers on ordinary citizens.  I guess this is the "law'n'order"
that so many cowards desire.  At least until THEY get bitten by the system.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: What's Your Comfortable Speed?
Message-ID: <>
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:10:32 -0400

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 17:49:47 GMT, "Nadyne Nelson"
<> wrote:

>We were right near a speed limit sign and there was no *minimum* speed limit
>posted. I didn't think he was huffing me - I just thought he was a moron.
>And I didn't give him a hard time because I think I've read too many stories
>and seen too many movies.  I travel alone and moronic cops in foreign states
>can wield WAY TOO MUCH power.  By the time you get everything sorted out, it
>has cost you too much time and money so I think, under the circumstances, I
>just said "YES, SIR" and got out of Dodge!

The minimum speed on the interstate in every state I've driven in is 45 and is
posted prominently on signs separate from the speed limit signs.

However, your approach was exactly the right one.  Given the corruption in the
police forces nowadays, the best thing to do is whatever it takes to get away
from the thug.

In the past I knew intellectually that most low level (read: traffic) cops
were corrupt from my experiences training local cops in radiological safety.
It was driven home to me last when with the "stop'n'rob" I experienced in
Knoxville, TN a couple of years ago.  I posted then about that experience
where a friend and I were stopped in my MH under the guise of speeding
(fortunately for me this was the first trip that I'd had GPS logging in
operation) and then proceeded to tear my rig apart while stealing a (properly
stored) gun (it mysteriously appeared in an envelope in my lawyer's office
after he contacted the BATF with the serial number) and some money (long gone,
of course) that I had stashed under the bed for emergencies.  And just to
spite me they poured water from an ice box into the buckets where I was
carrying match-grade pistols (we were headed to a shooting match.)  I only
discovered THAT when I arrived and opened the air-tight buckets to find these
very expensive guns badly rusted and laying in water.

The lawyer I hired bases his practice almost exclusively on victims of the
Knoxville cops, such as myself.  he said that even the cops refer to it as
'stop'n'rob'.  He also told me that Bradley County where I live is just as
bad, rousting people on I-75 with out of state tags for the purpose of robbing
them.  I suspect that this is widespread.

I was lucky that night in that I had my friend with me.  Normally I travel
alone too.  I would have been totally screwed had I been alone and not had a
witness.  I documented the damage with photos before we even moved the RV so
if you're interested in seeing what the "boys in blue" are capable of, just

Based on this experience and what I learned from others and my lawyer, I now
travel with several layers of protection.  I have the laptop running the GPS
logging any time I leave the local area.  That way I can prove that I wasn't
speeding and thus there was no reason for the stop.  I have one of those
endless loop type of video surveillance recorders installed under my dinette
seat, hooked to a tiny camera that looks over my shoulder, along with a very
sensitive microphone.  And I have my home number on a speed dial key on my
cellphone so that I can dial in and access my voice mail to record anything
that happens.  I have a computer-based system that can record hours of sound.
I'd love to be able to carry a wireless video camera on my body but they're
still too expensive and bulky to be practical.

The other precaution I take is to avoid cities late night.  Most of these
stop'n'robs seem to be undertaken under the guise of "drug interdiction" which
is almost always done at night.  I plan my trips so I'm through any metro area
before about 9 pm.

Oh, forget about suing the bastards.  I had a suit about to be filed when 9/11
happened.  My lawyer told me to forget trying to take any action against the
cops in the "security at any cost" hysteria in the aftermath.  I only had
about 6 months to file the suit after 9/11 so there was no time to let things
calm down.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Horse Trailer Saves Motorhomer's Lives--NOTE ON GPS DATA IN MVAs
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:35:08 -0500
Message-ID: <>

Are they litigating because the insurance company won't pay or are they
just being greedy?  I'm actually curious about this.

Anyway, you've brought up a subject that bears repeating.  Given the level
of fee grabbing going on today and the general level of police corruption,
GPS logging is now something I consider a safety measure.

You may recall that I reported a couple of years ago on my "Stop'n'rob"
experience in Knoxville, TN.  This was where I was stopped for "speeding"
and then had my RV searched, torn up and several items including money and
a gun stolen.  My handheld GPS proved that when the pig claimed I was
doing 68mph, I was actually doing exactly 55 and a fraction.  This plus
the cop car video that showed the "drug dog" obviously "marking" my RV in
response to his handler's command resulted in all charges being dropped
and my gun mysteriously showing up at my lawyer's office.  The b*stards
still have my money plus I was out the $3 grand for the lawyer.

By today's standards, the GPS evidence was crude.  I had to convert the
backtrack data into a track and keep it carefully stored on the handheld
unit.  No external communication possible so I had to give the unit to my
lawyer along with instruction on keeping fresh batteries in it.

Nowadays I use StreetAtlas's trip logging function.  Unfortunately it
doesn't work very reliably so I usually also have my Meridian Platinum
handheld unit in the vehicle logging its own track.  I can store that to
the built-in SD card.

Both video cameras and DVRs (digital video recorders) have gotten good
enough that I'm now very close to my other self-protection goal - to run a
continuous in-car video recorder like the pigs do, to be used to protect
myself from future cop assault.  Ideally I'd be able to push a button and
have the digital video beamed via WiFi, cellular data network or whatever
to secure off-site storage to protect against the pigs stealing or
damaging the DVR.

The risk of this happening is real.  Yesterday's paper had an article
about a cop who'd been fired for beating up a street bum for no reason has
been indicted for trying to con a C-store operator out of the security
camera video tape that he thought (correctly, as it turns out) recorded
the beating.  Fortunately in this rare instance, prosecutors had already
retrieved the tape and had set up to sting the ex-cop.

Such protection is especially important for the person traveling alone
where it would be his word against one or more pigs.  Fortunately I had a
friend with me when I was stopped and robbed.  I would have been at the
mercy of the pigs had I not had the GPS data and the video tape.

Some folks will (again) label me paranoid.  I probably am but it's based
on experience.  Consider the stop'n'rob.

I was traveling through Knoxville on the way to a shooting match at about
1 AM.  I had a friend with me and we were cruising along at the speed
limit on cruise control.  I saw the cop car on the side of the freeway
with his brake lights on.  He was obviously sitting in wait for someone.
I kicked off the cruise and got ready to change lanes in case he jumped
out in front of me.  I passed with no incident.

About a mile down the road this pig shows up on my bumper, apparently
having run up behind me with his lights off.  I pulled over, rolled down
my window and turned on my dome light like a good little subject.  This
guy dressed in black BDUs with a gun strapped to his thigh (for the daily
gunfight at sunset?) and sporting a high'n'tight wannabe marine haircut
swaggered up to my window and ordered us both out of the vehicle before he
even asked for a license.

Following standard ACLU advice (oh my! I must be a liberal....) I locked
my door but unfortunately my friend didn't.  He strong-armed me to the
patrol car and did the usual ticket thing after informing me that he'd
"clocked" me at 68 and a 55 zone.  Knowing better than to argue on the
side of the road, I merely asked him to cut me some slack.  He practically
spat in my face as he demanded "why should I show you any f*cking

Within moments of his finishing the ticket and right on cue, another cop
showed up with the drug dog.  he walked the dog around my rig, never
getting closer than 10 ft until he "marked" my propane tank as the cop and
ordered him to do with a hand command.  Even before the dog marked the
original pig grabbed me and shoved me into the back of his car, then did
the same to my friend.  There we sat for the next 2 hours while they
destroyed the inside of my MH.  This is where it became unfortunate that
my friend did not lock his door.  If he had I could have forced them to
either get a warrant or let me go.

After having found what they wanted to steal (my stash of emergency cash
stored under my bed and one of my pistols), they returned to the car we
were held prisoner in.  The pig that stopped me wrote me a ticket (NOT an
arrest!?!?!) for allegedly carrying a concealed pistol.  Then they booted
us out of the car, got in and roared off in search of the next victim.

Now this concealed pistol ticket was interesting.  I carry my match
pistols wrapped up in anti-corrosion cloth and stored inside 5 gallon
plastic buckets.  The buckets are water and air tight, give great
protection and make great shooting stools.  The pistol in question was in
one of these barrels safely tucked away in the bathroom in the back of the
MH.  Unbeknownst to me, after finding the pistol, the pig used the shower
hose (I'm speculating about this detail) to put a couple of inches of
water in the bottom of the bucket.  By the time I got to the match the
next day and opened the bucket, the pistol and other contents were
severely rusted.

I'm sure some of the authoritarian bigots here will figure I "had it
coming".  Consider this.  Both my friend and I had top level security
clearances which means that our records are spotless.  Neither of us have
any personal "cop triggers" such as long hair, male earrings, wrong skin
color, etc.  He's active Army and his dress reflects that.  My rig is
quite ordinary looking.  No plastic pot leaves hanging from the mirror or
ACLU stickers on the rear bumper.

IOW, there was absolutely nothing to give the pig even the remotest excuse
to think us suspicious.  Our 'crime' was being on a practically deserted
interstate and having this pig's attention falling on us.

My lawyer told me that the stop'n'rob problem in Knoxville was endemic. He
said that they particularly like motorhomes because there is usually so
much more stuff to steal.  An on the occasion when they find a stray roach
in the ashtray, the value of the vehicle that they steal via civil
forfeiture is so much higher than cars.

They (the defense bar) had been looking for a perfect case upon which to
file a federal civil rights case.  We fit the bill.  Two perfectly clean
guys who could prove (via the GPS data) that the initial stop was bogus.

Unfortunately in the interim 9/11 happened.  We agreed that in light of
the new national love affair with irrational government authority, the
likelihood of a successful suit against the cops was remote.  Especially
considering the available jury pool (read: bog stupid.)  So we reluctantly
dropped the effort.  I was hoping that the authoritarian hysteria would
subside before the statute of limitation ran out but it didn't.

Sooo.... I now try to avoid traveling alone.  Even though I prefer it, I
try to avoid driving at night.  I run the GPS's and I have an audio
recorder rigged up so that I can record at least the audio portion of any
pig encounter.  Plus I try to wake people up to the threat of unrestrained
authority.  It's futile but I still try.  Anyone who thinks I'm
exaggerating should download and read the Patriot Act.  Be afraid, be very


On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:34:45 -0500, "Steve Wolf" <> wrote:

>Friends of ours were traveling though North Carolina when they were forced
>to stop for an accident.  A truck, traveling at a high rate of speed, struck
>them from behind.  The truck plowed through their horse trailer killing two
>horses, both horses were pregnant.  Our friends and the truck driver were
>In preparing the litigation for the upcoming recovery, GPS data provides a
>picture of how they saw the problem and began slowing well ahead of the
>blockage.    They stopped and the GPS shows the impact as the motorhome was
>pushed off the road.  The litigators believe the data will go a long way tin
>demonstrating the truck driver was inattentive.  My wife is now demanding
>GPS data be logged for every trip we take.
>There is no blood or gore in the photos.
>I don't have a fast enough connection to find the link but the story is at
> in the archives.
>Finally out camping in the northern Ohio snow!
> under the motorhome link

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Horse Trailer Saves Motorhomer's Lives--NOTE ON GPS DATA IN MVAs
Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 05:03:49 -0500
Message-ID: <>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:59:22 -0500, "Steve Wolf" <> wrote:

>There is some question that the value of the horses and foals might be
>confused by the insurance company.
>When someone falls asleep at the wheel and drives into the back of your
>motorhome killing your prized pets the question is not greed as much as
>revenge.  Neither are appropriate reactions.  Both are to be expected.
>> IOW, there was absolutely nothing to give the pig even the remotest excuse
>Oh, please.  John, you have an immense knowledge of things relevant but a
>personality that is sour as swill.  I bet many would find you beyond scary.
>Some don't scare so easy and therein lies your problem.  That pisses you

Hmmm... Since we've never met I'm not sure how you think you know my

I have been known to use my ability to intimidate to my benefit.  But
never to a cop.  I used to volunteer my time to train the local first
responders in radiation safety (with two nuclear plants and Oak Ridge in
the neighborhood, for some reason they thought they needed it.) and I used
to ride shotgun on patrol as a field deputy back when that was the only
way to legally carry.  I know the cop personality too well.  I know that
they have the guns and know how to get away with using them.  I know that
far too many carry throwdown weapons.  I know that far too many have no
problem planting evidence when they decide to "get" someone.  I know that
they have the system behind them and that despite the words in the
constitution, the system presumes one guilty.  Ergo, it's "yes sir" and
"no sir" and pretty much otherwise keeping my mouth shut.  I know that
there are more appropriate places for revenge than the side of the road.

>Have you considered applying to law school?  Seriously.  I'm not kidding.
>All that potential seems a waste when squandered on the stuff of
>irrelevance.  802.11b is fun but good for little more than stoking the
>profits of Linksys.  Take that gift and make a difference.  We'd be reading
>about you in the New York Post and Time as instead of complaining about such
>things you would change them.

Yes I have.  Seriously.  I'd love nothing more than to be able to go up
against the vast array of forces and resources now arrayed against a
citizen who attracts too much attention.  Particularly federal attention.

There are several problems.  First off, I'd be embarrassed to be
associated with the scum of the bar.  I've worked for a number of lawyers
as an expert consultant (and very rarely still do) and I've seen what it
takes to be a "successful" lawyer.  That is in direct contrast with my
personal ethos.

Still, if I could knock off 20 years and after law school be able to
apprentice under one of the best defense lawyers like, say, Gerry Spense,
I might still do it.  But there are other practical problems.

But.  I'm too old.  I'm too comfortable with my current lifestyle.  The
fire in the belly is gone.  I'm not sure I have sufficient charisma to be
a good trial lawyer, what I'd be interested in.  After almost 15 years on
the front lines, I burned out as a gun rights activist and I'm afraid the
burn-out is permanent.  I don't do deadlines very well anymore.  I don't
want to work very hard. I'd rather travel and play.

Soooo.... Now I peddle pig and bitch a lot...  If perhaps my bitching
inspires someone else to take action then maybe I've accomplished


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal With A Badge In Iron County Utah
Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:04:43 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On 6 Oct 2005 00:17:22 -0700, "thom379" <> wrote:

>We had been touring marvelous Utah for a couple of weeks. On one
>outstanding day we drove around the Escalante area. We were returning
>late after a day of enjoying what we feel is the most beautiful state
>we've toured so far.
>The Iron County, Utah cop swung his cruiser over the median (almost
>colliding with traffic in the southbound high speed lane) and pulled in
>behind us. I wasn't concerned. I had us on cruise and I was doing 72 in
>a 75 MPH zone. We were behind a semi and not gaining on him. The cop
>turned on his lights. I didn't think he was after me so I kept going.
>He then put his spot light on us and I pulled over immediately. He came
>up to the drivers side. I asked him what the trouble was. He asked me
>for my license. He didn't want to see my registration or my proof of
>insurance. I thought that to be strange. Then he said he had me on
>radar at 90 MPH!


Sorry to hear about your misfortune.  You're lucky you got off so
easily.  Much worse things are happening.  Unfortunately the pigs in
many areas see RVers as easy pickings.  Knoxville, TN is infamous for
their "stop'n'robs".  I was the victim of that one night several years
ago.  The pig pulled me and claimed he'd clocked me >70 in a 55 zone.

Interesting concept since my MH had a front end problem at the time
that made it shake the wheel out of my hands at anything >65.  I
thought the pig took a long time writing the ticket.  He was waiting
on the "drug dog".  The dog pig led the dog around my rig, never
getting closer than 10 ft.  He claimed that the dog marked on my
propane tank.  They used that excuse to hold us hostage while they
ransacked my MH.  In the process, the stole a pistol, poured water in
a bucket that I had other match pistols stored in and stole a couple
of hundred dollars I had stashed under the mattress for emergency
money.  Funny thing was, they never looked  in the propane tank

My lawyer subpoenaed the pig car's video tape.  An expert dog trainer
identified the hand signals the cop gave the dog.  The dog was trained
to "mark on command".  My expert said that it is normal to train a
drug dog to mark on command so that the pig can generate probable
cause when he wants it.

My lawyer told me that this is so common up there that most of his
practice is based on defending stop'n'rob victims and suing for
restitution.  Unfortunately, while we were preparing my suit, 9/11
happened and everyone closed their eyes and turned law'n'order.  We
decided that the political environment was not amenable to a suit
against the pigs.  I did manage to get my gun back after I dug up the
serial number.  It "appeared" on a detective's desk and my lawyer
picked it up.

Oh, did I mention, the pigs never filed a written report of the stop
or the search.  The DA's office couldn't drop the speeding charge
quickly enough.  Unfortunately for the pig, I had a couple of things
going for me.  First my buddy is an Army Major with a TS clearance.  I
have recently had a Q clearance (top secret nuclear) which pretty much
certifies us as non-drug using good guys.  Second, I had one of those
then-fancy GPS units that recorded a track.  I could play back the
track, including the atomic clock quality time stamps and prove what I
told the cop - that I had my cruise set to 55.

One other thing I should mention.  I had a couple of weeks' worth of
meds in some of those day-by-day pill containers.  Nothing controlled,
just BP, cholesterol, that kind of stuff.  The pig practically sh*t
himself with glee when he found those.  I told him what each pill was
and of course, he got out his little pill book to verify.  OK, I
suppose up to then.  But he didn't stop there.  He emptied out every
compartment and fondled each pill, making them unfit for my use.  He
intentionally trashed several hundred dollars worth of prescription
meds, grinning all the while.

The problem is, there is little you and I as outsiders can do other
than sue under the federal civil rights laws.  That is, of course,
expensive and difficult.  The Gestapo have made themselves almost

One thing I have done is print up some little business-card-sized info
cards.  On the card is an executive summary of what happened.  Then it
explains that I would have done business with the establishment except
that it is in Knox county which supports those kinds of actions.
Whenever I go through Knoxville and I have time, I'll pull into some
random store or restaurant and hand a card to the owner/manager.  I
want the citizens of the county to understand the very real
consequences of their support of the Knox county government and its

The lesson that comes out of your experience is, I hope, that you've
learned the awful result of this "strong law'n'order" attitude that
has festered up in the post-9/11 era.  Power always corrupts.  The
country's founders realized that oh so powerfully but people today
seem to forget.  One of the worst corruptions is this so-called "civil
forfeiture" where the pigs can steal your possessions upon the mere
allegation of wrongdoing and then you have to sue to get them back.

My Knoxville lawyer told me that the reason they target RVs is a)
they're worth a lot more than cars and b) there is an increased
likelihood of there being something nominally illegal in the thing.
Stuff like a prescription narcotic not in the prescription bottle,
that kind of chickensh*t stuff.  They use any little excuse like that
to seize the vehicle and possessions and the only recourse the victim
has is to sue in federal court to get them back.

The root of this is one of the many legal fictions the "law'n'order"
Supremes wrote when they said that inanimate objects can be sued by
the feds.  The pigs seize the object (motorhome, etc) and sue it for
the criminal violation.  Since the object can't defend itself, the
government wins by default.  The owner has to sue to get the default
reversed.  If you look in the Federal Register, you'll see thousands
of suits styled like "$50,000 vs the United States of America" or "A
2001 Winnebago Motorhome vs the United States of America".

The worst part is, the feds let the locals keep most of what they
seize.  Thus the incentive to stretch and violate the law, just like
the justices of the peace and constables in times past that held
kangaroo courts on the side of the road and pocketed part of the
fines.  This money lets the pigs grow even more militaristic and buy
even more weapons to use against the citizens.

I'm ready for a little lawlessness and disorder, also known as

BTW, my county, Bradley, has gained a national reputation for
stoppin'n'robbin' out-of-staters.  This is I-75 north of Chattanooga
from about the 16 mile marker to the 33 mile marker.  In an area where
the sheriff claims not to have enough  men to properly patrol the
county, there are always at least a couple of unmarked, blacked out
"drug interdiction" cars on this stretch of interstate.

Even though this will hurt my business, my advice is that if you look
at all non-WASPish, have an out-of-state tag, have long hair or drive
an expensive vehicle OR a beat-up one, avoid this stretch if at all
possible.  Fill up with gas in Chattanooga or south of Knoxville and
take the old highway that parallels I-75 through Bradley County.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal With A Badge In Iron County Utah
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:23:24 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 22:09:40 -0600, Phil <> wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 14:04:43 -0400, Neon John <> wrote:
>> I was the victim of that one night several years
>>ago.  The pig pulled me and claimed he'd clocked me >70 in a 55 zone.
>It would be interesting to hear the officers side of this story.

Since they didn't file a report on the stop, that would be difficult.
If asked directly, I imagine they'd be like those deputies currently
on trial in Atlanta for lying about their actions prior to the court
house shooting.

Considering that my lawyer told me that he's making most of his
practice off of "stop'n'robs", I imagine the pigs have the lying part
down pat.

I think I'd have been in a lot more trouble had the first pig's car
not had an on-board video system with the recorder inside a
tamper-proof box in the trunk.  That only senior management has the
keys says something about what THEY think of the rank and file.  My
lawyer was fortunate to get the tape before it was tampered with.

If you want the pigs' names, drop me a note and I'll be happy to
supply them.  Then you can do what you like.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal With A Badge In Iron County Utah
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 14:45:06 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 21:07:20 -0500, "tightwad" <>

>Well Tennessee Troopers have scrupples.I am amazed and pleased at their
>restraint of the urge to play cowboy for the most part.

Yes, I agree with that.  I was stopped recently and given the only
ticket I've ever deserved by a Tn Statie.  He wrote me for 90 in a 75,
though I was going a LOT faster.  Very professional and very quick -
under 5 minutes total.  None of this registration and insurance crap.
Just my license and only then long enough to run it.

Since I view a speeding ticket as nothing more than a tax on driving
fast (would I pay $160 a year for a special tag that let me drive any
safe speed?  Youbetcha!), I was not upset.  A little sore at myself
for letting myself get caught but not mad.

I think that the major difference is that the state patrol does not
profit from their policing activities.  Anything seized goes to the
county in which the stop took place.  Ergo, they concentrate on what
is important to them - revenue via tickets.

>You will encounter
>harassement by County and City Law along the Interstates in the"fight to
>stopdrug running."
>I don't know what they actually look for when they decide to stop someone. I
>don't think it is speed.
>It seems that around the Murfreesboro Tn area that one day they stop black
>cars, the next day white SUV's.It's the same thing in many jurisdictions
>across the State on the Interstates. There is big bucks in asset forfeitures
>of drug runners and perhaps other felons. TheLocals aren't adverse to using
>any excuse to search your vehicle.
>It amounts to no less than the harassement of everyone traveling the
>roadway. I'm all for a cruel punishment and torture of drug scum but there
>has to a better way..

Driving while black, driving while Mexican, driving in a car too
expensive for the stereotype of your looks and race.  Those are the
main ones.

Since the government has never been able to prohibit something that a
large number of people want, nor should it even try, I want to get the
government out of the prohibition business all together.  The minor
consequence will be that a few more people use drugs.  The major
consequence will be that most of the excuse for the massive police
state now extant in this country will be gone.  Of course, there's
always "terrorism" to fill in.

"Terrorism" is so ephemeral and ill-defined that it can be whatever
the petty fascist of the instant decides it is.  Unfortunately the
only way to stop that abuse is to get rid of 'em all.  I leave the
methods to the younger generations.  Maybe they'll someday care about
freedom more than my generation did.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal With A Badge In Iron County Utah
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:22:46 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:40:53 -0500, "RAM^3"
<> wrote:

>In the small town of Kendleton, TX, the local PD would "set" their "locking"
>radar units to show 75 MPH and then simply pull over any late-model
>out-of-county "upscale" [Caddy, Lincoln, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc.] car that
>came by. [They'd "set" them by clocking each other's patrol car.]

This is a problem that is so common I'm surprised that a case hasn't
made it to the supremes yet.  They don't even have to clock another
car, though that's easy enough to do.  Each radar set comes with 1 or
more "calibration" forks.  This tuning fork is held in front of the
radar gun and the gun checked for the proper speed indication. Problem
is, if the fork is held just right, the microwaves will bounce off
both tines on the way back and the gun can be made to read double the
fork calibration.  Standard forks are 35 and 55 mph.  The 35 mph one
is desirable from the cop's perspective because it can generate a 70
mph reading.

All guns have a circuit check function that feeds an oscillator into
the microwave detector that is supposed to check the gun's circuits.
Press a button and look for a designated speed reading.  All my guns
register 65mph in "circuit test mode".  Problem is, this reading can
be locked in like any other.

To meet federal standards, in other words, to be a "presumed correct"
stop, the cop is supposed to keep a log book, fork the unit
immediately before the stop and immediately afterward and record the
results.  No cop I've ever seen forks the unit even once a shift nor
keeps a log so a speeding ticket is easy to get tossed by someone who
knows the system IFF one can get to court.  Many areas have set up
procedural roadblocks designed to frustrate and wear down those who
want to exercise their constitutional rights.

In Cobb County, GA, for instance, you have to show up for the docket
call at 7:30am.  If you don't answer the roll call, a warrant is
issued.  You sit there all day and maybe get to see the judge.  He
gives you a stern lecture about why you should plead guilty.  He'll
accept the guilty plea on the spot.  If you plead not-guilty, your
case is continued for another date.  On that date, the process
repeats, only this time the judge lectures you on what additional
costs will be imposed if you dare to bother the court with your
rights.  If you persist, you are continued over to yet another date.

That's 2 days off from work and two days of sitting on hard wooden
benches.  If you have the fortitude to show up for the third docket
call, the prosecutor will call you aside and give you a similar
lecture.  If you persist, s/he'll let you sit for a few hours and then
for simple speeding and the like, the case is dismissed.  Can't afford
to take up the judge's time with non-revenue-generating activities
like an actual trial.  For worse things like reckless driving, pretty
much everything else except DUI, the prosecutor will offer a deal. Pay
the fine but no points and no reporting to the state database. Show me
da money.

I pushed a speeding ticket through the whole system just to see how
bad it was.  I'd been given the ticket while sitting stationary in
rush hour traffic on I-75.   The pig probably had a quota for the day
to fill and that shiny red BMW was just toooo inviting.

To give you an idea of how bad Cobb County (I-75 north of the loop in
Atlanta.), the county bought an old bank drive-thru and operates it as
a drive-thru ticket window.  High volume "justice" NOT!

>If they'd remembered to send in the State's share of the ticket proceeds
>they'd still be at it. Instead, the locals were stupid enough to keep all of
>the money and didn't report any of the tickets to the State.
>There was also a "minor matter" of their attempting to enforce a 35 MPH
>Municipal speed limit without bothering to post any signs...
>They don't have a PD any more... <G>

Nearby Benton and Polk county used to be that way.  The state is
getting the last laugh.  They apparently fee grabbed someone who
mattered, for now the Hwy-411 widening project includes a bypass
around Benton far away from the town.  The town will likely dry up and
blow away.  Serves 'em right.

The state recently stripped another little burg near Chattanooga of
its police department after every single one of them were caught up in
a corruption sting.  Of course, that's just a tiny rose caught up in
an ocean of sh*t.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Criminal With A Badge In Iron County Utah
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 21:23:00 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 22:50:52 GMT, "Mark Jones"
<> wrote:

>It is hard to imagine how these people can look at themselves
>in the mirror after these blatent examples of outright stealing
>from people.

Same mentality that let the nazi death camp guards look themselves in
the mirror and to sleep soundly at night.  First they convince
themselves that it's "us vs them" and that all "them" are de-humanized
scum.  After that, it's a matter of them just doing their jobs ridding
the world of scum.

This isn't just a guess on my part.  See below.

>My brother is well aware of my opinion. He is a police chief
>in a small town in Missouri. He has been on the receiving
>end of this kind of crap himself, so he works at making his
>officers leave people alone. Writing bogus tickets is a quick
>way to destroy a tourist area.

I have a friend who's the chief of a small town force to the north of
Cleveland.  The town used to be on AAA's speed trap list.  65 to 35 in
one fell swoop with a cop sitting right on the sign.  My dad (a CPA)
used to do the city's annual audit.  I can't recall the exact numbers
anymore but they generated >60% of their entire budget from fee

My friend got the city to raise the limit on this major state highway
to 40.  They would not go any higher so he will not let his cops write
a speeding ticket for anything under 55, the speed limit coming into
town.  45 to 50 seems about right on the highway traveling through
this no-stop-light town so there's plenty of safety margin.

The old guard really hates him and have managed to trump up a couple
of TBI investigations.  He's so squeaky-clean that despite literally
man-years of poking into all corners of his life, they've not been
able to get rid of him.  The reason they hate him is simple - when he
stopped fee grabbing they had to raise taxes and still cut the budget.

We're real good friends and have had several conversations that
parallel this thread.  His explanation of why cops abuse the citizens
is pretty much what I said above about "Them vs us".  I'd come to
pretty much the same conclusion from my various volunteer jobs
including a period as a field deputy and as a radiation safety
instructor for the area public service types.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Gun Laws
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 02:55:23 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:42:27 GMT, "Dan" <> wrote:

>> One story typifies such a nightmare. A businessman from North
>> Carolina was traveling on the New Jersey turnpike when he was stopped for
>> speeding. During the routine questioning, the trooper asked the North
>> Carolina man if he had a firearm. Having a concealed carry permit in North
>> Carolina, he told the trooper that he had a pistol which he was licensed
>> to carry. Before he could utter another word, the trooper had drawn his
>> sidearm and ordered the man out of his car with his hands up. The stunned
>> businessman, who had never even had a parking ticket, obeyed. The man was
>> charged with a felony and spent three days in jail.

Several things come to mind:

What the hell was a good ole Southern boy doing in a cesspit like NJ
in the first place?  It ALMOST serves him right.

During a traffic stop:

* Keep yer mouth shut and do NOT answer any questions other than about
the your driving.  A good answer is "With respect, officer, I'm not
going to discuss anything with you other than the reason for this
traffic stop."  That's also the right answer to things like "where are
you going?" and other such softening up questions.

* Get out of the vehicle and lock the doors before the cop gets there.
That might piss off the cop but it makes damn sure he can't do an
illegal search and then lie later and say that you gave consent.

* Keep yer mouth shut.

* If the subject comes up, expressly refuse permission to search your
vehicle.  Something along the lines of "I expressly refuse permission
for you to search my vehicle."

* keep yer mouth shut.

* Keep the drapes between the house and driver's compartment pulled
(install 'em if you have to) so that the cop can't see in the back.
Per the Supremes, a cop cannot enter the living area of an RV without
a warrant or permission.  The same holds true for the sleeper on a
truck.  I got this directly from the mouth of my lawyer who defended
me in the Knoxville stop-n-rob incident.

* Keep yer mouth shut.

* Think long and hard about getting a carry permit, as opposed to just
carrying.  In TN at least (and I bet everywhere else too), the cop's
in-car computer flashes a message if the person being "run" has a CCW
permit.  As if a CCW holder is suddenly going to blaze away at the

At a minimum this is going to get you harsher treatment.  With a
crooked cop you'll probably get the gun taken from you and something
trumped up to justify the stop and search as happened to me.  If you
don't have the serial number, the gun will likely disappear into the
cop's collection - as happened to me.  If you do have a serial number
then the gun will magically reappear sometimes - as also happened to

* Keep yer mouth shut!

* I recommend having a locked compartment (normally left open, of
course) within reach of your driver's seat that you can drop you piece
in as you pull over during a stop.  Have the keys in the glove box or
in the back of the RV or something out of reach.  That'll satisfy most
of the "unlocked, unloaded and out of reach" bit in the law - all of
it if you can speed-unload before you drop the piece.  In any event,
the cop can't legally force that box open without a warrant.

* Finally, keep yer mouth shut.

The ACLU has a nice little guide for surviving a traffic stop that
says most of the same stuff.  They even have a nice little DVD that
shows how to handle a traffic stop.  Their three most critical points
are a) make sure the car is locked,  b) learn to deflect any and all
questions with the "I'm not going to discuss" technique and c)
expressly state your refusal to consent to any sort of search.  This
is vitally important, especially if the cop has an in-car video and a
wireless mic on his body, as most do nowadays.

>I'll give up my gun/s (loaded & consealed) when they pry my cold hands from
>it - no sooner!

yeah, right.  The first time a government person says "gimmie" you'll
piss your pants and comply just like most everyone else will.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Gun Laws
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:42:04 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:45:24 -0400, "Jon Porter" <>

>"Neon John" <> wrote in message
>> * Get out of the vehicle and lock the doors before the cop gets there.
>> That might piss off the cop but it makes damn sure he can't do an
>> illegal search and then lie later and say that you gave consent.
>That one can get you in a lot of trouble real quick in some areas. Around
>here, the cops want you to stay inside the vehicle unless they order you
>out. They will yell at you to get back in the car if you jump out after
>being stopped. Best to follow their instructions, which means doing nothing
>until they tell you to.

What kind of trouble?  Go tell mommy on you?  The cop might not LIKE
it but there isn't much he can do after the fact. As long as you keep
your hands in plain sight, he has no justification for any rough
stuff.  Which isn't to say he won't try it but this is where you have
to weigh relative risks.

If you get pulled by either a crooked cop or one who is simply looking
to burn someone to better his arrest score, you're subject to anything
from a simple stop'n'rob to having dope or something else planted in
your car.  Not to mention anything he might find as he strip-searches
your vehicle.

Had a 'script for a narcotic pain killer years ago and inadvertently
dropped a pill down behind the seat?  Busted.  If your car is used, do
you KNOW that there isn't anything under the seats or carpet?  A
friend of mine who's a used car dealer regularly finds guns under the
back seats of cars he's bought at auction.  Have you strip-searched
your own car?

In the case of my stop'n'rob in Knoxville, had I been able to get out
and get the doors locked in time, there wouldn't have been a
stop'n'rob.  Keep in mind that the cops did NOT file a report on my
stop and did not turn in the gun that they stole from me.  They would
NOT have gone on the record requesting a warrant to search had I
locked the doors and refused the keys.  They had a production
stop'n'rob operation going and a warrant would have only slowed them
down from robbing the next victim.  The gun only came back,
mysteriously appearing on my attorney's desk, after I dug around in my
records and found the serial number.  I got my door shut and locked
but my friend didn't know to.

When you get stopped on the side of the road, especially at night, by
a bad cop, it's no longer about right and wrong or even justice.  It's
a war of wits with you trying to stay out of jail and him trying to
burn you with something, anything.  You're playing on his field by his
rules.  If you don't know at least a little about the rules, you're a
sitting duck.

Me?  I'll tolerate the cop strutting around with a purple face
blustering and swearing at me - while I stand beside my locked and
secured car.  When it's all over I may have a ticket but I'll still be
free, I'll still have all my property, my vehicle won't be torn up and
I won't be spending another $2500 to a criminal lawyer.  That's a fair
tradeoff in my book.


From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Gun Laws
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:50:27 -0400
Message-ID: <>

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 08:11:44 -0400, Frank Tabor <>

>On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:42:04 -0400 Neon John <> wrote in
>article <>:
>>Me?  I'll tolerate the cop strutting around with a purple face
>>blustering and swearing at me - while I stand beside my locked and
>>secured car.  When it's all over I may have a ticket but I'll still be
>>free, I'll still have all my property, my vehicle won't be torn up and
>>I won't be spending another $2500 to a criminal lawyer.  That's a fair
>>tradeoff in my book.

I'm so disappointed in you, Frank, being as you're the one who
searches far and wide for the one-off extreme example to "prove" your
point.  Surely you could have found a case where a cop blew away a
citizen for getting out.  That has to have happened somewhere

So he got chicken-shitted?  I got my RV torn up.  That old man in New
Orleans got beaten half to death by the cops.  There are bad ones
everywhere - no surprise.

Please follow that story and report when that chicken-shit charge is
dismissed.  And hopefully when that lawyer sues the cop for abuse of

Besides, after having spent way too much time in Lynchburg, it doesn't
surprise me in the least that such chicken-shit came from those cops.

I'm STILL going to get out of my vehicle.  I'd rather deal with
chicken-shit than try to beat the rap after the cop "finds" a vial of
crack or a hot gun in my car.  By the way the cops acted during my
stop-n-rob, Eric and I were both scared shitless than they were going
to plant something in my RV.  Fortunately for us, they were happy just
tearing the place up and stealing a gun and some money.  That whole
stop was a sham to gain the opportunity to steal something since I
wasn't speeding in the first place and had the GPS evidence to prove


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