From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:50:34 -0400
Message-ID: <ttfrv2pcfneotea6tmsrnst2obhqnisqvf@4ax.com>

>> > I'm generally not the "sue em" type. In fact, I think over 90% are simply a
>> > means to take advatage of a situation for money. In this situation, if it's
>> > as described, someone has to stop the local autorities from overstepping
>> > their bounds. The only legal way I know to do that is to sue.
>>
>> Here's the problem, Steve, the people in charge of the court system
>> *are* the local authorities. The bias is built-in. All a law suit will
>> do is enrich the pockets of the attorney he hires.

I went through this evolution after my Stop'n'Rob in Knoxville.  While
it is true that the locals control the local justice system, that
isn't the place to sue for stuff like this.

The proper place is in federal court with a federal civil rights
lawsuit.  This system is set up precisely to bypass local "home
cookin'".

There is one simple parameter that indicates whether there is a
winable case - whether the lawyer takes the case on contingency.  If
he wants money up front, run away.  He is rating the case a loser and
simply wants to pick your pockets.

OTOH, if he offers a contingency agreement that includes time AND
expenses in his share, then run with it.  Give the shark whatever he
wants.  A third, a half, whatever.  The more the better, actually, as
the larger the share the more he's motivated.

In my case, my attorney jumped at the chance to sign on for T&E of
1/3.  We were moving right along when 9/11 happened.  We sat down a
couple months later and mutually agreed that the odds of getting an
anti-government verdict in the post-9/11 nationwide love-fest with
anything authority was slim.  We put the case on hold to see how
things evolved.  I ended up letting the statute of limitations expire
without further action.  The post-9/11 environment was just too
insane.

Yukon, if the facts are as you relate them, I urge you to find a shark
specializing in federal civil rights cases (should be a bunch of 'em
in MS) and give the thug(s) a good ole smackdown.  Even if you don't
want nor need the money, do it on principle.  Every time someone walks
away from authoritarian abuse like this it makes it a bit worse on the
rest of us.  Letting the thug get away with it will only embolden him.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:51:59 -0400
Message-ID: <sj4rv2t68r8ui948b7t57dn3t5heuf7rf0@4ax.com>

On Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:08:44 GMT, "Tom  J" <tomnews@earthlink.net>
wrote:


>You just stated YOUR problem that I suspected from the beginning. You
>have a fast, hot temper that got you spouting off instead of being
>calm and carrying on a normal conversation. As far as your son and
>what he was doing to look suspicious, at this time we don't know, but
>I've seen and heard "my kid is a great kid and does nothing wrong",
>when in fact, just the opposite has happened - mine included.
>
>You are in the USA where MOST people are civil to each other, and as
>you found out, it takes 2 people to have a screaming match. I've never
>seen a 1 sided one in my life, and I'm 15 years older than you.
>
>Just so you know, the type of encounter you had in MS is just as
>likely to occur back home if you insist on getting loud and boletus in
>conversations with people of any walk in life.

Your and others like you's attitude is a sad commentary on what this
country is becoming.  It doesn't matter how egregiously the cops
behave, whether it's Rodney King or my stop'n'rob* in Knoxville, TN or
this case, there seems to always be a large crowd pop up to defend
their actions.  Y'all are, of course, the ones with the (bloody)
doe-in-the-headlights look when you end up on the wrong end of a billy
stick.

Why is it that almost every time some cop action is caught on video,
the cop is flagrantly abusive?  There's a video on youtube that I
can't seem to find again that shows a cop abusing a minor teenager at
a fast food drive-through window. He claims that he gave her a $20 and
she gave him change for a $10.  The surveillance tape shows the
manager checking her drawer and telling the cop that there isn't even
a single $20 in the drawer.  Nonetheless he storms behind the counter,
maces her and drags her out to his squad car to "arrest" her.  As
usual, the thin blue line wasn't broached, as the department "found no
wrong-doing on the part of the cop."

Sure we don't know all the details of what actually happened in
Yukon's case.  Maybe the kid was dressed in wannabe gang attire and
needed looking at.  And maybe Yukon had a big mouth.  Both of those
are beside the point.  The cop is the one that society gives the gun
to and in return we expect him to behave.  Always.  I bet that if
there had been a video, this cop would have looked just as bad as
those that beat King.

Another major, perhaps over-riding fact is that the encounter happened
in Yukon's home, his castle.  True, he should not have let the cop in
(NEVER EVER let a cop in your house regardless of how innocent you
feel.) but OTOH, I'd not be surprised to learn that the cop bullied
his way in.  Yukon had every right in the world to use whatever
language he desired in his home.

Tom, perhaps next time it will be you who's on the receiving end of
some redneck white trash goober cop in Mississippi who, armed with the
artificial bravery of that steel penis strapped to his hip, decides
that "yo in a heap o trouble, boy."  It is unfortunate that in some
places it is still the case that all it takes to set one of the thugs
off is "you ain't from around here, are ye, boy?"

* where the cops used a bogus traffic stop and a narc dog trained to
mark on command to enter my motorhome, strip it apart and steal money
and a gun.

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 22:44:21 -0400
Message-ID: <28trv29pp61qo26hpocqktklqu2hh3mjfq@4ax.com>

On 18 Mar 2007 19:17:33 -0700, "Yukon" <loyza@atlas.cz> wrote:


>It was uncomfortable.  When I sat in jail I realized how helpless
>person was.  They point to the phone to make your phone call,  but the
>phone doesn't work.  You suddenly realize that one wrong pull of an
>arm and they can get you for resisting arrest. You have absolutely no
>recourse. They can get you just about for anything.  It was quite an
>eyeopener for my and I might have to reasses my opinion of our laws
>and our justice system.  May be it isn't what I thought it was.

How's that old saying go? "A civil libertarian is a right wing fascist
who's been mugged by the system."

No totalitarian regime in modern history, from Stalin to Hitler, has
come into power without the support of a majority of its subjects.
I've gotten to know a number of Russians over the years.  Even the
strongest dissidents admit that most Soviet citizens were pretty much
OK with the way things were.  Not necessarily happy but not nearly as
unhappy as the US government propaganda would have had us believe.

Ben Franklin was right, Americans aren't smart enough to preserve and
maintain the freedom that he and his counterparts earned for us.  I
hope this little incident turns you into a motivated civil
libertarian.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 23:22:15 -0400
Message-ID: <9iurv2haddtuajt9c3lekgti77qjbf7jvm@4ax.com>

On 18 Mar 2007 18:33:47 -0700, "Yukon" <loyza@atlas.cz> wrote:

>
>I am getting some legal advice on this.  Will possibly have a lawyer
>to present my case in court.   I am working on getting the court date
>set up for Sept..that's when we have to come back here anyway.  So
>that is no problem.   I feel like I am the victim in this incident and
>I don't see it as morally right to plead guilty to something I feel I
>did not do.   Your home, your castle.  I was in my own house getting
>abused by a cop.  If I have to go thru some inconvenience, than it has
>to be.  I have two witnesses and he has none.  But I will go by what
>my legal counsel will tell me.

A person who represents himself in court has a fool for a client.

Stop what you're doing NOW and make two decisions that are coupled.

First, are you going to sue in federal court for your civil rights
violations?

If and only if your answer to that is yes should you contest the
charges.  This is your second decision.

If you're not going to sue then there is little reason to contest the
charges.  Sure, your lawyer can get them dropped but you'll be out of
pocket more money than if you just paid the fines.  You'll still feel
mugged but you won't get any remedy for that in criminal or municipal
court.

You stand zero chance of winning if you try to represent yourself.  At
this level the court is set up for one purpose - to enrich the local
government's treasury.  In many places (such as where I am now) the
system is set up to punish you for exercising your right to a fair
trial.  This punishment is in the form of various litigation taxes and
fees.  They want you to open your wallet but otherwise go away.

Until you make those two very important decisions, do NOTHING with
regard to the local government.  Don't talk to them and for God sakes,
don't put anything in writing.  You can very easily but inadvertently
relinquish valuable rights and protections and generally screw the
pooch before your criminal defense attorney has a chance to act.

I suggest talking to a civil attorney before the criminal one.  The
two are very different critters.  What the criminal attorney does will
depend in part on what you plan on doing civilly.  He can, for
instance, compel the production of evidence for your criminal defense
that you either won't have the right to or will have to pay someone to
collect for the civil one.  And it might be the case that you'll want
to try a criminal charge instead of accepting a deal, even if the deal
involves expunging your record, just to get sworn testimony on the
record for the civil suit.

This is very important, as perjury in civil trials is almost expected
while lying under oath in a criminal one can get one a lot of time to
think about his mistakes.  You'll want to nail the cop's lies down
while under criminal oath.

I give this advice not as an attorney but as an expert witness who has
considerable experience watching the system do its thing.

You're lucky in that all the cop did was act like a thug.  I worked a
criminal case back in December where the cops conspired to "get" my
client and just flat out lied on the record.  Fortunately they were
typical dumb-*ss cops who were too ignorant to lie credibly so I was
able to analyze the physical evidence and prove their malfeasance so
his attorney could rip 'em new bungholes.  The case was dismissed with
extreme prejudice about 1 microsecond after my report was filed with
the court and my client is now pursuing his civil suit.  The very good
defense attorney used the preliminary hearing to nail down these
suckers' lies in preparation for the civil suit.

One other thing to keep in mind.  In a lot of these little hillbilly
towns, legal process is a game.  All the combatants are friends and
after the day in court they all meet for drinks.  You don't want an
attorney who's best fishing buddies with the prosecutor and/or the
chief of police and maybe is Billie-Bob cop's second cousin.

Don't hire the first attorney you talk to.  Try to evaluate the
candidate attorney for his willingness to wage war.  As they say in
law school, you deserve and should expect a zealous defense.  You may
have to hire an out-of-town attorney to get that.  This probably the
hardest task you face in this entire battle.

Once you've drawn the attention of The Machine, it is no longer about
right and wrong nor innocent or guilty.  It is only about winning and
losing and you're playing on their home court.  You need to remember
that as you proceed or you'll find yourself extremely frustrated and
angry.  Follow your attorneys' advice and nail their asses to the wall
in federal court.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:02:04 -0400
Message-ID: <k51vv25fqmo35tnkb52urfk7d2dvsmg8vd@4ax.com>

On 19 Mar 2007 21:53:44 -0700, "Yukon" <loyza@atlas.cz> wrote:

>Mike, you are right on.  On the way out of town we stopped at the
>county court house and I pled guilty to the charge. I was able to see
>the judge.  Quite an interesting fellow.    Decided that 500 hundred
>bucks was a spit in the bucket and that I am not going to play their
>games.  Spoke with a lawyer and he advised the same.  My only
>satisfaction now is,  to bring as much attention to this as I can.
>There might be an article in Clarion-Ledger, as I spoke with their
>editor in charge. Even spoke with Maggie Wade of Three on your side TV
>program. We are now  in the beautiful state of Alabama, the life is
>good. :-)  I am surprised by some mean-spirited folks on this
>newsgroup.  Well,  we drink to those who wish us well. And to those
>who don't,  they can go to..   Good luck.   y

Don't think Alabama will be a lot better, at least in the southern
part.  Be careful.

Anyway, have you seen this site?

http://www.policeabuse.org/

They'll help you file a formal complaint against the cop, both with
his department and with the Department of Justice.  The former
probably won't matter but the latter might.  If there are other
complaints against this goon then maybe the feds will step in.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 15:25:29 -0400
Message-ID: <n8otv2pnlhm7a57chcklv43ufovu10ro9j@4ax.com>

On 19 Mar 2007 06:02:15 -0700, "Yukon" <loyza@atlas.cz> wrote:

>> It's very disconcerting to have someone cut between trailers. It's
>> kind of like if some stranger was in your front yard at home. Imagine
>> sitting in your living room and seeing someone walk by your window.
>>
>> I suspect that's what started the whole thing.
>>
>> Hunter
>
>Yes I agree.  But there are lot of kids there.  We had kids chasing
>ducks around my trailer all the time.  Am I going to yell at them or
>call security on them? No.  If people have to  walk around too much,
>they won't do it,  they'll cut thru.  The spaces are very large
>there,  so often walking in between is intrusive.  Other places are
>tight and then it causes problems.  y

I think back to my youth in the campground where we spent many a
weekend.  If cutting between units is a jailable offense then me and
all my friends would still be in jail.

Of course, back then everyone in the CG got out to meet everyone else
in the CG and make friends.  Even the few old farts.  None of this
cowering inside the rig just waiting for something to happen that will
let one get pissed off.  Heck, we even rode minibikes and motorcycles
between and behind other rigs.

There was one old fart in the CG seemed to have entered that anti-fun
phase of life that so many here are suffering from.  But even he had
the decency to come complain to my parents instead of skulking off
like a rat in a sewer to complain to 'authorities'.  My folks talked
to my brother and me, we calmed down a little and everyone was happy.
He didn't expect hermetic perfection and we still had fun.

It would be a sad world if these RORT complainers who already have one
foot in the grave were representative of RV camping.  With the
exception of the CGs that cater to pharts, fortunately that isn't the
case.  Most folks who camp are laid back and cool, in my experience.

Now I'll admit that I really hate the sound of a bunch of kids
screaming.  Grates on my nerves like fingernails on a chalk board. But
the concept of calling the authority goons on the kids would never
even enter my mind.

I've gone over and asked the parents to calm down their kids and tell
them not to scream as they run through my slot but that's as far as
I'd ever go.  I remind myself that I rented my slot, they rented
theirs and we both have the right to enjoy them as we please.  Then I
strap on the sound-proof headphones and start some nice music.  Say,
Metallica, for instance.....

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: Abuse at Timberlake Campground, MS
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 00:15:02 -0400
Message-ID: <timuv2davjq3bll5gidhnlu1p93fkaae4v@4ax.com>

On 19 Mar 2007 20:22:34 -0700, "Yukon" <loyza@atlas.cz> wrote:

>On Mar 19, 5:12 pm, Lon VanOstran <R...@stopspamwmconnect.com> wrote:
>> Neon John wrote:

>> > I've gone over and asked the parents to calm down their kids and tell
>> > them not to scream as they run through my slot but that's as far as
>> > I'd ever go.  I remind myself that I rented my slot, they rented
>> > theirs and we both have the right to enjoy them as we please.  Then I
>> > strap on the sound-proof headphones and start some nice music.  Say,
>> > Metallica, for instance.....
>>
>> How many times, John, would you set your satellite dish back up and go
>> through aiming it, before you went to the authorities to put a stop to
>> kids running back and forth over your cable?

Short answer: I'd never even think about skulking off to call the
authorities over something as petty as that.  The (literally) couple
of times that kids annoyed me enough that I couldn't stand it, I
handled it directly with their parents.  Key to that is not being an
unreasonable *sshole.

This does raise a plethora of other questions though.  Why were you
sitting on yer butt watching the idiot tube on a nice day like that?
Why was the satellite out where the kids could affect it?  If you were
living there then why the jerry-rig mount that kids could knock askew?
After the first time, why didn't you move it to get it out of
everyone's way? How 'bout if a dog had hit it?  The wind?  Gonna come
out and shake yer warty old fist at the sky?

>>
>> Some of us aren't camping. We live there, and it pisses me off when some
>> damn kid takes me away from my basketball game to fix my dish. It would
>> piss me off lots worse if his uncle thought that was OK. It's not OK. If
>> you want to use my site for a playground, pay for the SOB. My body isn't
>> good enough to play with the kids these days, so I watch kids play on
>> TV. Get over it.
>>
>> Lon
>
>Calm down Ostram,  it's not a big thing.   I know,  you probably don't
>have much to do anymore, so these things become huge in your mind.  If
>too many people cut thru my space, then I am going to take care of
>it.

Just ignore Lon.  He's the prototypical bitter old man whose utter
irrelevancy to the world he can't abide.  His screeching at kids and
members of this group is a pitiful lurching grasp for a shred of
attention, any attention.

Sadly, the advances of modern medicine have enabled this sort of
person to live on far after any meaning to life is a distant memory.
All that is left is to bitch.  I'm afraid this will only get worse as
the spoiled-brat, "me first, last and everywhere in between" Boomers
gingerly ease one foot into the grave.

Best thing to do is to filter Lon and his ilk so you don't suffer that
stress that comes from forcing yourself not to reply to the BS.

John