From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: I-85 in Alabama 5th wheel fire
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:50:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1ithn1550niippb2p6118imdgnd5uialdq@4ax.com>
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 17:18:36 GMT, hchickpea@hotmail.com wrote:
>Just a thought - wouldn't an automatic fire suppression system be a
>wise investment? In the area of the water heater or refrigerator,
>even a couple of zip-lock bags full of baking soda secured above the
>likely flame area would be cheap insurance. The engine compartment
>would be more difficult because of normal high temperatures, but still
>possible. I lost a van to an engine fire. Although... in that case,
>it was "good riddance" to ongoing problems caused by an aftermarket AC
>installation.
There really isn't much of anything to burn in the back of a
refrigerator or water heater. The water heater is sealed from the
inside.
Of the RV fires I've read about where a cause was definitely known,
engine fires are at the top, followed by brake and electrical fires. I
imagine that stuck-on brakes account for many/most towable fires. A
simple thermal switch, AKA "Klixon" mounted to each backing plate and
hooked to a warning indicator would address that problem, I think.
An engine fire in my MH is a significant concern to me. In fact, I
have a race car fire suppression system sitting here on the shelf
waiting on a round tuit to be installed. I know, a lot of good it's
doing there.
A reliable automated system would be quite expensive and quite
complicated - look at military aircraft systems as an example. With a
manual system, determining that there IS a fire while there is time to
extinguish it is problematic. Not so hard with a front engine setup
like I have but a pusher, well, that's more complicated.
There are rate-of-rise thermal switches that will work - I have a few
in my junque box - but figuring out where to place them so that the
heated air/smoke impinges them while underway could be tricky.
I have my rig down now for a head job...., well, OK, a valve job :-) I
think the fire system will go back in before I put it back on the
road.
John
From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: I-85 in Alabama 5th wheel fire
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 19:03:23 -0500
Message-ID: <7u8in1pmak82dfp4uh5vsq8ara4fq662h3@4ax.com>
On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:10:06 -0800, "Kevin W. Miller"
<i09172@strudelyahoo.com> wrote:
>I don't think an automated system is really all that necessary. I'm guessing
>that few of the engine fires happen while the RV is sitting quietly alone in
>the driveway. I'm also guessing that most folk know when they have an engine
>fire. A safe, reliable way to put it out would probably suffice. Push a
>button and run, so to speak.
>
>Kevin W. Miller
>
I'm not concerned about sitting in the driveway. I'm concerned about
motoring down the road in a pusher when, say, an oil line blows, the
oil hits the turbo and catches fire. The engine is still running fine
and if the leak is small, the fire may also start small and not make
much smoke. Unless you're REALLY attentive, you'll probably miss the
smoke trail.
This isn't just speculation. I've read several accounts of people
being notified by other drivers that their rig was on fire. This is a
situation where an automatic detector is vital.
The problem is figuring out where the flames and smoke will be blown
while underway and then placing the detectors appropriately.
I've studied military aviation fire suppression systems and even
talked to some design engineers. The location problem is the same in
an aircraft engine. A lot of wind tunnel time goes into figuring this
out.
Mil systems use high speed UV detectors and halon puffers to snuff the
fire before it gets completely started. Overkill for us but a "fire"
light on the dashboard would be nice.
Manually actuated systems are commonly available in the kilobuck
range. Look at any of the online vendors that cater to car racers. I
recommend paying the extra money for a Halon system over the
substitutes. Halon leaves no residue so if the fire is nipped before
it causes much damage, it's possible to repair the problem and
continue on.
John
From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: I-85 in Alabama 5th wheel fire
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 01:32:49 -0500
Message-ID: <v60jn1hrn0v0h6svimn6a8o331auri66va@4ax.com>
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:15:08 GMT, "Jim Corey" <jcorey@escapees.com>
wrote:
>
>>>>SNIP<<<<
>
>> recommend paying the extra money for a Halon system over the
>> substitutes. Halon leaves no residue so if the fire is nipped before
>> it causes much damage, it's possible to repair the problem and
>> continue on.
>I thought Halon was not available any more. Environmentally unfriendly.
It isn't manufactured anymore, at least not in the First World but
there are tons of the stuff out there and new systems are still being
sold that use it. A quick google will show that.
John
From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel
Subject: Re: I-85 in Alabama 5th wheel fire
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:16:03 -0500
Message-ID: <2k5kn19diuitjudp7ivgnj15oi7m0bmg3o@4ax.com>
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 09:09:27 GMT, Greg Surratt <glsurratt@verizon.net>
wrote:
>>It isn't manufactured anymore, at least not in the First World but
>>there are tons of the stuff out there and new systems are still being
>>sold that use it. A quick google will show that.
>>
>>John
>>---
>You are both right - kind of. Jim is thinking of the old Halon (I
>forget the numbers) that was outlawed several years ago. There was a
>new type of Halon to replace it. The Navy had to convert the systems
>in their shipboard Boiler and Fire rooms which involved putting in
>more Halon tanks because the new "flavor" was only about 1/2 as
>efficient as the old stuff.
Noooo, I'm completely correct on this. Not just a "did not, did too"
petty point, as the "old" halon is still by far the best suppression
agent available.
Here is an "old" Halon 1301 system that you can buy right out of the
Summit Racing catalog. The first google hit I got.
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=egnsearch.asp&N=400473+311325&autoview=sku
That same system before the "ban" would have cost about half that.
Just to clarify another point, Halon was not "banned". Just like the
CFC refrigerants, EPA banned the manufacture and under most
conditions, the importation of the compounds on the Montreal protocol
list. Halon is a brominated hydrocarbon that was on the list.
Unfortunately, to the eco-kooks, lifesaving is less important than
practicing their goofy worship of nature.
The USE of CFC and BHCs was NOT banned. A tax was applied to the sale
of all remaining NEW stock but not old, recycled stock. Just like
with R-12, there is enough recycled stock to last into the indefinite
future. Combine that with the wholesale smuggling of CFCs and BHCs
over the mexican border from "third world countries" that are still
allowed to manufacture the stuff and you end up with a plentiful but
expensive supply.
This stuff comes in inside double hulled propane tanker trucks.
Propane in the space between the hulls and connected to the outside
world and R-12 in the inner hull. The workmanship and expense
involved is amazing. The government simply created another huge black
market with the ban.
The military's response to the manufacturing "ban" was part panic but
mostly political correctness. Remember that it was the klinton
administration under which this changeover took place.
Not all services have converted, at least not completely. At an air
show a couple of weeks back I had a nice chat with the crewchief of a
Huey Cobra gunship who had just returned from Iraq. He had a Cobra on
display with the engine nacelles open. Having a particular interest
in this area, I asked him about the "new" fire system. He laughed and
said that the Marines, since they have to actually get the job done,
still have the good stuff. :-) He had no idea whether they'd have to
go to the new stuff or not.
A photo of the engine and halon system:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Deep_linked/Huey_halon.jpg
While on this same subject, here is a movie I shot at a party I
catered a few weeks ago. It's 27mb long but well worth the download.
After the Bud went to work, some of the rafting guides decided that an
old sofa needed to be bonfired. This movie shows just how fast and
how violently an upholstered foam sofa burns once ignited.
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Deep_linked/Sofa_Flambe.avi
John