From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel,alt.rv
Subject: Re: Financing for Fulltimers- Debit or Credit?
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:45:27 -0500

wwemu@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:30:25 GMT, "Dutch" <dutchhard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I agree Joe that Debit cards are a risk. That is why if I am making any
> >purchases larger then gas or food that I always use my credit card.
> >I also never under any circumstances sign my cards they all read "ask for
> >ID" where the signature goes. This also will limit your liability in case
> >your card is stolen even on your debit card. If a clerk doesn't ask for ID
> >the store is responsible since you specifically requested on your card that
> >you want them to ask for it to be positively identified.
> >I always get a kick out of the person making a purchase when the clerk tells
> >them that they can't accept a unsigned card.. The customer takes back the
> >card and right in front of the clerk signs the card.. Clerk looks at the
> >signature and the signed sales slip and low and behold the signatures
> >match.. LOL
> >
>
> The US Postal System is part of that Farce. All my cards are also
> marked, " Ask for ID". The Postal System will not accept them.  Fed- X
> and UPS are professionally run organizations...

Actually the post office is following the rules.  My merchant
agreement requires me to check the sig on a card against the slip
and makes me completely liable for chargebacks if I accept an
unsigned card.  "Unsigned" includes that cute little "ask for photo
ID".  Perhaps Fedex and UPS just transfer the risk to the customer
in the form of higher prices.  Looking at the price spread between
the post office and either of them, that becomes obvious.

I've seen the same thing with clerks allowing someone to sign the
card as you have.  That is the sure sign of someone who has yet to
be nailed by a large chargeback (or simply a give-a-shit-less
minimum wage worker operating at their full mental capacity.)  My
merchant agreement requires that I confiscate such cards (and I get
paid for doing so).  I usually just decline the card unless someone
smarts off whereupon the scissors come out.

John

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel,alt.rv
Subject: Re: Financing for Fulltimers- Debit or Credit?
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:16:54 -0500

Lon VanOstran wrote:
>
> Neon John wrote:
>
> > I've seen the same thing with clerks allowing someone to sign the
> > card as you have.  That is the sure sign of someone who has yet to
> > be nailed by a large chargeback (or simply a give-a-shit-less
> > minimum wage worker operating at their full mental capacity.)  My
> > merchant agreement requires that I confiscate such cards (and I get
> > paid for doing so).  I usually just decline the card unless someone
> > smarts off whereupon the scissors come out.
>
> Any merchant who cut up MY credit card when I have ID to prove it is
> mine, and the credit card company hasn't instructed them to do so (as in
> when the verification comes back "confiscate card"), would lose MANY
> MANY customers before I stopped making noise.
>
> Such an action could leave a family stranded away from home, with
> serious problems. Any merchant who would do that deserves anything and
> everything which happens to him.

Since the merchant is doing what he's required to do by contract
with the clearing house, he is in the right and you would be wrong.
If you throw a tantrum and act like a child the merchant can have
YOU arrested for disturbing the peace and trespassing (after he asks
you to leave and you keep ranting.)  At least in this town, the cops
respond rapidly and in force when I call 'em for a customer
disturbance.

That credit card is NOT yours.  Read your contract.  The card
belongs to the CC issuer and you are required to surrender it upon
request.  As a merchant, I'm acting as their agent when I confiscate
an invalid card in accordance with MY contract.  They anticipate
assholes like you, for in my merchant guide they advise not to take
any physical risk in dealing with belligerent customers.

If I take an invalid card and there is no fraud involved, I'll be
paid something like $25.  If the card is on a fraud list, I get
something like $500 (I'm not sure of the amounts, as I've never done
it.)  As you can see, the incentive is there to err on the side of
the system.  I've never taken a card for any reason, mainly because
I know most of my customers, but I certainly could and would be
fully backed by the system if I did.

Frankly, anyone who relies on their plastic as their sole source of
money on a trip is a fool.  There are a myriad of things that can
happen to make the card unavailable, ranging from losing it to
having it mistakenly invalidated.  Anyone who insists on plastic
should probably have several.  And if you have several, having one
confiscated does little more than annoy you.

Other than the wannabe-cop-syndrome I can't figure out why people
pull these cute little tricks like refusing to sign the back of the
credit card.  The card issuer says to sign it.  They instruct us
(merchants) not to accept improperly signed cards.  And they
indemnify you against fraud loss.  So what's the big deal about
doing it like the system wants you to?

John the perplexed

From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.rv-travel,alt.rv
Subject: Re: Cutting up a Credit
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:33:19 -0500

Lon VanOstran wrote:
>
> Marc Alan wrote:
>
> > Just a warning here, Did you ever look at the credit card? It's not YOUR
> > property, it's the CREDIT CARDS property to do with as they please. If you
> > pop someone who is doing as instructed to property not yours to begin with,
> > you're probably gonna be charged with assault and battery and gonna lose big
> > time in court. PS, while you probably could use the CC to pay for your legal
> > defense on other charges, their rules specifically forbid using it to pay
> > for legal fees when defending against them.
>
> Show me where the credit card fine print instructs that my card be
> confiscated if I write "check ID" on the signature line.

That's in the fine print of the merchant agreement.  Unless your
first name is "check" and your last name is "ID", if you write
"check ID" on the signature line, you have not complied with your
agreement that requires you to sign the card.  If I accept a card
without a valid signature, I'm liable for any fraud.  And I'm
instructed by my merchant guide to confiscate any non-conforming
card (or language to that effect).  It's one of those provisions
that is rarely enforced but it could be.  As a practical matter it
isn't worth the hassles for a $10 meal.  But if you plop down
plastic for a $2000 catering job, you bet yer bippy that I'm going
to dot ALL the "i"s and that includes checking the card sig against
the one on the slip.

John
>
> Lon, who spent 2 hours reading fine print earlier today.