Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: tip@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Followup-To: rec.pyrotechnics
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:00:20 GMT

In article <4an43j$igv@news.euro.net>, akker@euronet.nl (Phaeton) wrote:

> It's just like in the beginning of the World Wars....
> 
> You can use Black Powder as rocket fule, only you gotta change the
> formula.
> 60% Potassium Chlorate
> 15% Sulfer
> 25%  Charcoal
> 
> The powder will be more usefull then...

If you use this formula to make a "fule", then you are a "fool".  

Mixtures of potassium chlorate and sulfur are notoriusly sensitive, and
subject to autoignition and spontaneous explosion.

Perhaps we should tern to Phaeton's first comment "like in the beginning of
the World Wars".  Back in the late 1700's, Potassium Chlorate was
discovered by Berthelot.  KClO3 has a much higher amount of O2/gram than
KNO3, and gives a more brisant explosion when mixed with C and S.   So they
attempted to manufacture black powder using KClO3, C, and S.  Berthelot
obtained the use of a powder mill, and invited several noblemen and
nodelwomen, and distinquished visitors to witness the first-ever
manufacturing of chlorate based black powder.

Pieces of one nobleman were found hundreds of yards away.  Several died.  
Extensive testing found that the material essentially could not be made
safely,  the process was deemed a total failure.

Perhaps Phaeton has tried this formula.   His success in using it does not
mean it is safe.  It is rather like playing Russian Roulette.   You don't
lose EVERY time, just too damned often.   The variables that determine if
the material will spontaneously explode are numerous and poorly
understood...  purity of the sulfur, crystal form of the chlorate,
impurities, etc...  MaCLain has found that a small amount of copper
contamination in the chlorate ASSURES a "high order detonation" within 30
minutes of mixing.

Don't fool with this "fule".


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If I was smart, I'd have a clever .sig

From: glhurst@onr.com (Gerald L. Hurst)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Date: 16 Dec 1995 03:26:28 GMT
Organization: Consulting Chemist
Lines: 27

In article <RGTYMOWS.82.30D1B2FE@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
RGTYMOWS@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (R. Tymowski) says:

>In article <tip-141295115208@pc176x1.phy.ohiou.edu>
>tip@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
>
>>KClO3 has a much higher amount of O2/gram than KNO3
>
>Um... forgive me for interrupting, but isn't it the other way around?
>(39.2% O for KClO3, 47.5% for KNO3)

As Alice would say, "this thread gets curiouser and curiouser."

Tip was undoubtedly referring to "available" oxygen, that is
oxygen available for oxidation.  When you adjust your calculations
to reflect that not all oxygen is equal, the relative values look
equaler and equaler, i.e., almost the same.

KClO3 --> KCl + 3/2O2		(O2 = 39.2%)

KNO3 --> 1/2K2O + 5/4O2		(O2 = 39.6%)

Tip was probably thinking about KClO4 while his fingers typed
KClO3.  We chemists rarely lose count of our oxygen atoms
unless there are more than 20 of them or we have our shoes on.

Jerry

From: glhurst@onr.com (Gerald L. Hurst)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Date: 17 Dec 1995 21:43:06 GMT
Organization: Consulting Chemist
Lines: 36

In article <RGTYMOWS.83.30D47B1C@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
RGTYMOWS@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (R. Tymowski) says:

>In article <4ate94$1ji@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> glhurst@onr.com (Gerald L.
>Hurst) writes:
>
>>KClO3 --> KCl + 3/2O2           (O2 = 39.2%)
>
>Hmmmm... I was under the impression that this reaction yielded K2O, oxygen, 
>and some oxide of chlorine (which later reacted with the fuel to give 
>miscellaneous chlorinated compounds). Oh well.. Live and learn.

The reaction:

K2O + Cl2 --> 2KCl + O2 is very exothermic

as are the reactions:

CCl4 + O2 --> CO2 + 2Cl2

4HCl + O2 --> 2H2O + 2Cl2

It follows that the end products of an explosion involving
KClO3 and C-H fuel will tend to favor KCl, H2O and CO2 in 
a BALANCED mixture. 

The oxides of chlorine are unstable enough to be regarded
as simple mixtures of O2 and Cl2 in an explosion.

It should be noted that explosions are rarely totally "clean"
reactions. Analysis of explosion products almost always
yields traces of numerous compounds including hydrocarbons,
cyanides (if N is present) CO and perhaps HCl and chlorocarbons, 
etc. Fortunately the amounts are generally not high enough
to endanger health.

Jerry

From: glhurst@onr.com (Gerald L. Hurst)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Date: 17 Dec 1995 22:05:11 GMT

In article <4b22ta$s9r@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, glhurst@onr.com (Gerald
L. Hurst) says:

>K2O + Cl2 --> 2KCl + O2 is very exothermic

Make that 2KCl + 1/2O2. 

Jerry

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: tip@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:09:41 GMT

In article <RGTYMOWS.82.30D1B2FE@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
RGTYMOWS@BIOLOGY.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (R. Tymowski) wrote:

> In article <tip-141295115208@pc176x1.phy.ohiou.edu>
> tip@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:
> 
> >KClO3 has a much higher amount of O2/gram than KNO3
> 
> Um... forgive me for interrupting, but isn't it the other way around?
> (39.2% O for KClO3, 47.5% for KNO3)

1) Yes, and 2) we're both wrong.   I should have used the word "available",
and even so, KNO3 has a trrivially higher amount.

KClO3 -heat-> KCl + 1.5 O2                         39.2%

KNO3 -heat-> KNO2 + .5 O2                          15.8%
2 KNO3 -more heat-> K2O + N2 + 2.5 O2              39.6%


Note, that the decomposition of KClO3 is exothermic, so it doesn't take
much "ooomph" to assure complete release of O2.  KNO3 requires a
substantial input of heat to decompose.   Except for very hot flames, KNO3
doesn't always exhibit complete decomposition.


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If I was smart, I'd have a clever .sig

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: tip@mercury.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Subject: Re: How to make easy rocket fule....
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 20:12:20 GMT

In article <4ate94$1ji@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, glhurst@onr.com (Gerald L.
Hurst) wrote:
 
> Tip was probably thinking about KClO4 while his fingers typed
> KClO3.  We chemists rarely lose count of our oxygen atoms
> unless there are more than 20 of them or we have our shoes on.

Thats part of the answer (in fact, I had just collated a table of available
oxygen just last week and SHOULD have known better)...   in addition I had
been doing a lot of thermodynamics calcs lately, and had conflated the
exothermic nature of KClO3 with the endothermic nature of KNO3.


---

If I was smart, I'd have a clever .sig