From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: Barrel cleaner, Robla
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <2vsh9a$mdh@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Randy True <randy.true@cccbbs.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:

#... "22PPC-The ultimate varmint slayer"

Or the ultimate flame bait :)  I'll bite on this one, being a PPC
shooter myself.

1) How much shooting do you do beyond 400 yards with the "ultimate"
varmint slayer?  Having shot PPCs for money out to 300 yards, it's
clear to me that "ultimate" is a bit of an overstatement if trajectory
counts for anything.  If wind flags were suddenly disallowed
(and I haven't shot too many varmints in well-flagged fields),
a lot of BR shooters would flee their PPCs for something that
drifts less (thank God those .308s and their 20" barreled muzzle
blast are a rare item in BR these days, thanks to wind flags).

2) How easy is/cheap is it to produce 2000 rounds (a few days of
good varmint shooting) of PPC ammo, vs. a .223 that will do the
same job?  Last I saw the cheapest formed PPC cases were $0.74
each, and the good stuff is over $1 each.  Great for my benchrest
rifles, where 40 cases outwear the barrel.  In the gopher fields?
You must be joking :)

3) Since the PPC cases are made for matches where the difference
between first place and 20th is often a hundredth of an inch, they
are clearly well made (though the full-length 22PPC doesn't win
much).  I know from experience that the difference between a
well-made 22PPC and a similar .223 is indistinguishable, except
that brass is 1/5 or less the cost.  The problem is that the
factories don't believe in making a good .223, with a 1-14 twist
barrel and a chamber matched to the available brass.  Most .223
brass is of lower average quality than PPC brass, which makes the
PPC the path of least resistance for extreme accuracy work.  PPC
brass formed from 7.62x39 is comparable in quality to most
American-made .223 brass, i.e. about 80-90% culls for benchrest.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: 22PPC (was: Re: Barrel cleaner, Robla)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <30100c$ou@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Randy True <randy.true@cccbbs.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:

#Most of our shooting here in Northern Kentucky is 500-600 yards. (Isaid
#shoooting, not connecting). I haven't shot mine for money, but I have shot
#one in NBRSA competition since about 1983.

I've never shot in a registered match where some side betting wasn't
done.

#What's wrong with the trajectory?

For target shooting?  Nothing, since the range is known.  For
long-range varmint shooting?  The flatter the better, and the 22PPC is
short by 400fps or so (about 100 yards in terms of MV vs. downrange
velocity) compared with the big 22s.

#I'm pushing a 51 grain bullet at close to 3700 fps out of a 27 inch barrel.
#It's just alot more efficiant .22-250.

If you shoot a .22-250 at the same pressures it will deliver 400fps
more MV than the 22PPC.  I've shot many a .223 with 50gr bullets at
3600+, and I wasn't scared to take the same loads out on a hot day.
My benchrest loads, OTOH, I wouldn't want to take preloaded to
Montana in July.  There's not enough magic in the PPC case to
make 28gr do the work of 38 (.22-250) *at the same pressure*.  Larger
cases give more velocity at the same pressure.  Since most cartridge
brass has a similar yield strength, it follows that a .22-250
can be loaded much faster than a 22PPC.  Few will argue that this
is, in fact, the case.  "Efficiency", measured in fps/gr propellant,
isn't much different among cases *if pressures are held constant*.
If you have any data that show differently, I'd like to see them.

#TB> 2) How easy is/cheap is it to produce 2000 rounds (a few days of
#TB> good varmint shooting) of PPC ammo, vs. a .223 that will do the
#TB> same job?  Last I saw the cheapest formed PPC cases were $0.74
#TB> each, and the good stuff is over $1 each.  Great for my benchrest
#TB> rifles, where 40 cases outwear the barrel.  In the gopher fields?
#TB> You must be joking :)

#I bought 1000 .220 Russian cases when I first got into the BR game at
#around $0.20 apiece.

And to think you could have cashed in when they went to $3 ... that
would buy a lot of .223 brass, with a rifle to go with it :)  And
when that 1000 is shot up by noon the second day out, do you whip
out the Culver and Wilson setup?  I've been there, and I found it's
more fun to shoot all day, sleep all night, and reload in the winter :)

#Being a PPC shooter yourself, you know how hard it is
#to wear this brass out.

The same is true for any brass that fits its chamber.  My deuce
brass lasts just as long as my PPC brass, at 3500fps from a case
with 4gr less capacity than the 22PPC.

#All of the cases I use for hunting are my "old"
#match cases. I have alot of cases that have well over 100 firings on them.
#A .223 does the same job? Do you have a .223 that will group 5 shots into
#a quarter of an inch at 3700 fps?

Not anymore, since I got tired of sorting brass by wall runout.  But .250"
isn't much of a challenge even for big cases like the Swift, properly
done.  Quarter-inch .223s can be screwed together the same as PPCs,
and with the same firecracker loads will go about as fast.  Since
they have very similar case capacities (with an edge to PPC) this
isn't surprising.  I wouldn't have a .223 made for *competitive*
shooting for the simple reason that the PPC is less trouble (because
the average quality of brass is better).  If I had Jim Borden
make me a .223 and it wouldn't shoot 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards
I'd send it back, and he'd take it.  Quarter-inch groups in
the competitive game today are a little sad.  The last NBRSA LV
aggs I shot (a month ago) took groups in the low ones to win
a match at 100, and I had the small group with a 0.073.  The first
match was one by Steve Kostanich sitting next to me, with a tidy
.111.  He shot it with a .222, and proceeded to win the grand agg
against a field of PPCs.

#The main reason the .223 wont shoot with the PPC is the PPC case itself.
#It is the perfect (almost) case as far as uniformity of the preasure curve
#of the expanding burning gases.

That's the hypothesis alright, with some scanty data to back it up.
There's no doubt the PPC is the path of least resistance in competitive
BR, but whether the case shape or brass quality (or flash hole size, etc.,
etc.) is the key is still up in the air, as far as I can tell. Still,
we're talking hundredths or thousandths in group size, critical for
competitive shooting but meaningless in the varmint fields where ranges
and wind must be guessed at.  If you had $1000 riding on a long shot at a
varmint on a windy day (and who knows how long that might be?), would you
prefer a 22PPC (3700fps at rather extreme pressures) or a Swift (4000+ fps
with loads you can shoot from below freezing to 100 in the shade), each
made as carefully as the other?  If you had to make a long shot with ANY
rifle, and had to bet $1K on the outcome, what would you choose?  A 22PPC?
Inside 300 yards the accuracy difference between the PPCs and bigger cases
isn't siginificant for field work, and beyond that one need only look at
which cartridges are capable of winning in competitive shooting.  The PPC
hasn't made much of a dent at the long-range target games.

#Another reason that people don't get the
#best results from the 22PPC , is the 1-14 twist. The gunsmith who chambered
#my first, and several bench guns told me that if I had to have a 22 instead
#of a 6mm, use a 1-15 twist barrel. You may have heard of him. A guy named
#Ferris Pindell.

I notice Pindell isn't shooting a FL 22PPC himself, either, anymore.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: 22PPC (was: Re: Barrel cleaner, Robla)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <302i9f$3ct@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
David Harris  <DGH3@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> wrote:
#     I know, this thread is rapidly digressing from cleaners - but I can't
#resist following up on this .22 PPC discussion.  I am considering having
#a varmint rifle made up and I am looking at this and the .22 BR Rem also.
#My comment relates to the 3700 fps from the 22 PPC.  I just looked at three
#new reloading manuals and didn't see any load delivering more than 3400 fps,
#and the "accuracy" load (the reason for a 22 PPC in the first place) was
#around 3350 fps.  It appears that these loads are potentially seriously
#overloaded, if the manuals I looked at are correct - and the three I looked
#at were all very similar.

Yah.  Typical competitive BR loads are a bit on the warm side, generally
off the end of the page in loading manuals.  These are fired from
hell-for-stout equipment and are loaded to match the day's conditions.
Shooting "morning loads" in the afternoon can have primers falling out
of the cases.  I've never found a competitive load that didn't crater
primers or squeeze brass into the ejector hole (if the action has
one), and I shoot milder loads than most folks I know.

#     I'm considering the 22 BR just because, in addition to an efficient
#case design like the PPC, it does safely generate 22-250 range velocities.

If by ".22-250 range" you mean within a couple hundred fps at similar
peak pressures, yes.  A .22-250 will push bullets faster than the BR
case if max pressures are equal.

#As I'm rebarreling a .308, the BR also possesses the advantage of using a
#large bolt face.  However, any of these cartridges pused beyond 3400 fps
#or so, are going to quickly deteriorate in accuracy (by benchrest standards)
#as they copper plate the barrel at such velocities (per Mr. Hart of Hart
#rifles) and would require extension brushing as often as every 10 shots
#or so.  Thus, pushing the .22 PPC at these velocities may defeat the
#accuracy benefits, assuming it can be safely driven at such speeds.

That's why the full-length 22PPC has all but disappeared from the
competitive game.  It has too much case capacity for typical .224
match bullets, giving too much boom and too much fouling.  It's
Waldogged versions (0.125 short in the original Waldog, 0.100 short
in the version popular around here) bring velocity down to 3450 or
so which seems to be the best compromise between fouling and wind-bucking
for benchrest in the .224 bore size.  The 6BR case is likewise too
big for 6mm bullets, and is shortened ~0.080 ("Talldog").  The
22BR for competition is shortened 0.150 or thereabouts ("Smalldog").

If you're looking for something with more poop than a .223 and less
than a .22-250, already have a .473 boltface, and don't mind paying
a little extra for brass (~$0.35 each last time I checked) the 22BR
is a good way to go.  Don't expect it to feed through the magazine
as well as a .22-250, nor to achieve the same velocity at similar
pressure.  Note that the .22-250 shot at 3600fps or so walked
away with all the tinware back in the '50s, and it still shoots
real well today.  A properly-made .22-250 will shoot at or under
the 1/4 inch mark at 100 yards all day long with full-house loads.
That's out of it for competitive shooting, but fantastic for
varmint shooting.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: 22PPC (was: Re: Barre
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <3071ib$aaf@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Randy True <randy.true@cccbbs.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:
#-=> Quoting Toby Bradshaw to All <=-

[Long range shot for $$ question]

#I guess if I had to use these criteria, I'd have to go to my gun rack and
#get my 40X .308.

So is THAT the "ultimate"? :)

#... "22PPC-Still the ultimate varmint slayer........to me.

... in close (?)"

That's more or less my point.  The 22PPC has excellent accuracy
but not the best; excellent muzzle velocity but not the highest;
good efficiency but not the best (in fps/gr propellant the .22LR
has it beat by miles); good barrel life but not the best.  It's
a compromise, one of many possible solutions to the "what to
shoot varmints with" question.  "Compromise" and "ultimate"
are contradictions in terms.

Let's go *way* out on a limb and say that
the 22PPC is a full 0.2MOA (ES) more accurate than even the best made
.223 or .22-250.  This is enough to put you off the bottom of the
charts at the Super Shoot, yet it means that average shot displacement
from group center at, say, 300 yards is a little over 1/4" (0.300"
if groups scale linearly with distance) more for the non-PPCs.
One-quarter inch at 300 yards is the amount of wind deflection
provided by a direct crosswind speed of about 0.3fps or 0.2mph
(3700fps MV, .222BC bullet).  If you can read the wind that close
in the field, to where even a huge potential accuracy differential
of 0.2MOA in extreme spread is noticeable, my hat's off to you.
The 22PPC is at its best where pinpoint accuracy is least important --
inside 300 yards.  Since it's really no big deal to put together a
1/4MOA rifle in any of the 22CFs, any of them can hit a gopher-sized
target at 300 yards if pointed correctly.  Of course, the bigger
the boomer the less nasty the effect of wind and range, and the
shorter the barrel life.  You make the call.  If making first-shot
hits at longer ranges is top priority, the bigger cases have
everything going for them.  If barrel life and reduced fouling
are more important, a .221 or .222 make nice rifles.  The 22PPC
just fits more-or-less in between.  A compromise.  Good for some,
not for others.

Long-range shooting requires that a balance between time of
flight, jacket quality (those long VLD jackets are hard to keep
concentric), recoil, etc. be considered.  The 22PPC is one
point on the continuum, and I would personally hesitate to
call anything the "ultimate varmint slayer", given the range
of variables involved.  YMMV, which is what makes for conversation.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: 22PPC (was: Re: Barre
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <30ci0j$gfo@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Randy True <randy.true@cccbbs.cincinnati.oh.us> wrote:
#-=> Quoting Toby Bradshaw to All <=-

#RT> #... "22PPC-Still the ultimate varmint slayer........to me.
#
#TB> ... in close (?)"
#
#If 500 yards is close.

It's middle distance.  Too far to hit even a chuck without holding
over/clicking up for any round with a chuck-sized midrange trajectory,
but not near the effective limit of chuck shooting east or west.

#TB> That's more or less my point.  The 22PPC has excellent accuracy
#TB> but not the best;

#What is then? In .22 centerfires.

Your original post didn't say "ultimate .22CF varmint slayer".  But,
to answer your question, the Waldog and its variants are more accurate
22CFs.  Do you know anybody winning with a FL 22PPC in benchrest?
There may be some, but all the 22s I see winning are short PPCs or
BRs, and an occasional .222 or variant.

TB>excellent muzzle velocity but not the highest;

#Agreed.

#TB> has it beat by miles); good barrel life but not the best.

#As compared to a .222 or a .223 yes.

As compared with anything of lesser capacity shot at similar pressures.
I wouldn't be so sure that PPC barrel life is longer than .22-250,
if both are loaded to the same velocity (hence much lower pressure
and temperature in the larger case).

#TB> The 22PPC is at its best where pinpoint accuracy is least important --
#TB> inside 300 yards.  Since it's really no big deal to put together a
#TB> 1/4MOA rifle in any of the 22CFs, any of them can hit a gopher-sized
#TB> target at 300 yards if pointed correctly.  Of course, the bigger
#TB> the boomer the less nasty the effect of wind and range, and the
#TB> shorter the barrel life.

#Granted, the PPC can't be pushed as fast as a .22-250 or a Swift. But at
#3700fps, why would you limit it to 300 yards?

I wouldn't.  I've killed chucks at twice that distance with a .223,
but never on the first shot.  If first shot, long range kills are
the top priority there is no substitute for the flattest trajectory
attainable (except a rangefinder) as long as accuracy can be
maintained.  I don't see the PPC making a dent where long-range
accuracy is the goal.  The reasons are obvious -- too little case
capacity for the high-BC bullets required to do the job.

#I've shot it long enough to
#know how many clicks I need for a given range out to 500 yards, and I
#can certainly dope the wind for it as well as the other guy with the .22-250.

Two things.  I can know how many clicks to put in a 22*RF* for 500 yards,
but I don't often know the range is 500 and not 525 or 475.  If you
have a Barr & Stroud or laser rangefinder trajectory is less critical.
I have neither.  I do shoot varmints with several other guys, and I
like to get my share on the first shot.  The best way to do this is
to have an accurate rifle with a flat trajectory, and friendly
relations with a gunsmith to keep you in barrels.  Second, the guy
with the .22-250 doesn't have to dope the wind as well as you.  In fact,
if you are equally good (but not perfect) at wind doping, the .22-250
will hit more often (given equivalent accuracy of rifles).  The
tradeoff between accuracy and trajectory/wind drift is a topic of
continued debate among varmint shooters.

#TB>You make the call.  If making first-shot
#TB> hits at longer ranges is top priority, the bigger cases have
#TB> everything going for them.  If barrel life and reduced fouling
#TB> are more important, a .221 or .222 make nice rifles.  The 22PPC
#TB> just fits more-or-less in between.  A compromise.  Good for some,
#TB> not for others.
#
#
#TB> Long-range shooting requires that a balance between time of
#TB> flight, jacket quality (those long VLD jackets are hard to keep
#TB> concentric), recoil, etc. be considered.  The 22PPC is one
#TB> point on the continuum, and I would personally hesitate to
#TB> call anything the "ultimate varmint slayer", given the range
#TB> of variables involved.  YMMV, which is what makes for conversation.
#
#I guess what it boils down to is that there is no "ultimate varmint
#slayer".

We agree on that.

#You could line up every varmint round (from .17 thru .308) and find
#a source of compromise with every one.
#I guess the PPC will always be relugated as a bastard round with its lofty
#price on brass, and its head size.

It's not the price of brass or the head size, I don't think.  Forming
PPC from 7.62x39 is stupid simple and cheap, and any decent extractor
will pull the PPC head off a .473 boltface.  IMO, the reason the PPC
hasn't caught on is only partly due to the above factors, and mostly
due to the fact that 99% of varmint shooters in the field would
not benefit from shooting a PPC instead of a .222, .223, 22BR,
or .22-250.  If American manufacturing tolerances and liability
concerns were applied to the PPCs, they would become indistinguishable
in accuracy potential from commonly available varmint rounds.  What
has kept the PPC's reputation up is that no junk (very likely excepting
the new Rugers) has been chambered for them, and no sloppy ammo has
been sold by the factories.  The same factors made the .222s reputation,
though the bar was a little lower back then.

#But I did succeed in raising some discussion on the round. Something I
#haven't seen around here.

It's pretty easy to stir the pot.  Here's a couple:

"7x57, the ultimate elephant gun"
".220 Swift, the ultimate deer cartridge" (should be x-posted to rec.hunting)
".308 Baer, the ultimate 1000 yard round"

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu