From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Subject: PRODUCT WARNING FOLLOWUP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

I regularly size cast bullets down .008-.009 inch without
trouble, so I don't believe what Lyman has told you. To
use Lee's 350 and 405 .458 slugs in my Casull I have to
reduce their diameters from .460 to .451 and my Lyman 450
does the job just fine in steps of .003 inches. The only
times I have had the problem you describe is when I have 
put a new sizing die in the press.

An air pocket would sometimes develop which would prevent
the lube from getting in the die and only the packing grease
would be present to ease the passage of the first few bullets.
Once I really cranked down on the lube reservoir and got the
bullet lube into the die body things straightened right out.
There have been two occasions in recent memory that I would
have sworn that I had ruined a sizing die and strained the
press for all it was worth.

From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Subject: Re: PRODUCT WARNING FOLLOWUP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <34979@mimsy.umd.edu> gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
#I regularly size cast bullets down .008-.009 inch without
#trouble, so I don't believe what Lyman has told you. To
#use Lee's 350 and 405 .458 slugs in my Casull I have to
#reduce their diameters from .460 to .451 and my Lyman 450
#does the job just fine in steps of .003 inches. The only
#times I have had the problem you describe is when I have 
#put a new sizing die in the press.
#
#An air pocket would sometimes develop which would prevent
#the lube from getting in the die and only the packing grease
#would be present to ease the passage of the first few bullets.
#Once I really cranked down on the lube reservoir and got the
#bullet lube into the die body things straightened right out.
#There have been two occasions in recent memory that I would
#have sworn that I had ruined a sizing die and strained the
#press for all it was worth.

I realize that this was not directed to the person I intended.
This was meant to be in response to John Bercovitz's complaint
concerning the inability of his Lyman 450 to size down a cast
bullet from .404 to .401 for a .40S&W/10mm. Sorry about that.
I hope this can be of some help.            Geoff Kotzar.

From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Subject: Re: PRODUCT WARNING FOLLOWUP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <35007@mimsy.umd.edu> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
#In article <34979@mimsy.umd.edu> gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
##I regularly size cast bullets down .008-.009 inch without
##trouble, so I don't believe what Lyman has told you. To
##use Lee's 350 and 405 .458 slugs in my Casull I have to
##reduce their diameters from .460 to .451 and my Lyman 450
##does the job just fine in steps of .003 inches. The only

(stuff deleted)

John Bercovitz wrote:
#
#I pushed the bullet ejector down and pre-lubed the die by
#cranking on the lube handle, so I know I had plenty of lube.
#(Messy but effective.)  Besides, the problem was still
#occurring 150 bullets later when I gave up.  What could be
#different between your set up and mine?  The alloy?  Are
#you using Lyman #2 alloy (5 Sn, 5 Sb, 90 Pb)?  The fellow at
#Lyman didn't say anything about the age of the press - mine's
#about 20 years old - he just flat out said that .003 was too
#much for the press with #2 alloy and a bullet that big.  I 
#wonder if your press is newer/hardier somehow?  My brand
#of lube is Javelina Alox/beeswax; I presume that's as good
#as any other in regards to this problem?

(stuff deleted)
#
#Thanks very much for the reply relating your experiences.
#
#    JHBercovitz@lbl.gov    (John Bercovitz)

My 450 is about the same age as yours being purchased new in 1968.
Until about 2 years ago I used Javelina lube exclusively. I still
do in an RCBS and a Star for sizing rifle and certain pistol bullets.
I switched over to LBT Blue in the 450 but that should not make any
difference. With regard to alloy I have never used Lyman #2 because
the wheelweight supply has been very good in my area. Lyman #2 is
a lot softer than straight WW so if anything I should have the more
severe problem.

Your questions interested me so I ran a test this past weekend. I
took some grossly oversized bullets I had for my .41 that miked .420.
I had cast them out of WW. Using a .410 die I ran 3 of them through
without putting any pressure on the lube reservoir. Aside from some
excessive force required and the usual "chunk, chunk, chunk" as I
passed the grease grooves they went in smoothly and came out smoothly.
I then took 5 of them and heattreated them. I do not have a Brinell
hardness tester in our lab but we do have a Rockwell tester. On the
"L" scale - 1/4 inch ball and 60 kg load - pure lead runs about a 5
as-cast WW about 40-42, mono-type about 64, and ht-WW runs around 90.
Annealed copper runs around 92. I put two of these babies through my
450 and will never do it again. The force was ridiculous BUT they 
went in smoothly and once I got them moving they came out the same
way. On top of that, the sized diameters ran between .4105 and .411
for the ht-WW and between .4100 and .4107 for the ac-WW. This was
after reducing their diameters .010 inch. You might want to check
your sizing die with a lead slug if your bullets are popping out .402.

I suspect the difference is just that I started out using straight
mono-type and have grown accustomed to stiff action when sizing and
lubing. My 450 has been in continuous service for 21 years and is
in as good a condition as my shooting buddies' which is only about
2 years old. The only reason I bought the other two lubri/sizers
was to enable me to use different lubricants without having to clean
the reservoir out and to allow me to size and lube bevel base bullets.

From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Subject: CORRECTION Re: PRODUCT WARNING FOLLOWUP
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <35200@mimsy.umd.edu> gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
#
#(stuff deleted)
#
# With regard to alloy I have never used Lyman #2 because
#the wheelweight supply has been very good in my area. Lyman #2 is
#a lot softer than straight WW so if anything I should have the more
#severe problem.

That last sentence is out of date and was based on a formula from
Lyman that has been in my files forever: it was printed in 1975.
That formula for #2 is  5.5# WW, 1# 50/50 bar solder, and 3.5# Pb.
The current formula is 9# WW and 1# 50/50 bar solder. The Sb content
has been reduced from 9% to something around 3%. Bullets cast from
current WW ARE softer than Lyman #2. This is according to the NRA Cast
Bullets book and Lyman 's Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Ed. and a little
late night research.


#I then took 5 of them and heattreated them. I do not have a Brinell
#hardness tester in our lab but we do have a Rockwell tester. On the
#"L" scale - 1/4 inch ball and 60 kg load - pure lead runs about a 5
#as-cast WW about 40-42, mono-type about 64, and ht-WW runs around 90.
#Annealed copper runs around 92. 

The above hardness values are for the batches of wheelweight I have
used in the last 1-2 years. I am curious now because we have been
using ac-WW for rifle loads in 7x57, 30-40 Krag, 30-30, and 30-06
without leading problems and with acceptable to excellent accuracy.
Our velocities have been held to around 1800 fps for the most part 
but even those pushed out at 2200 fps showed no signs of leading or
group deterioration. I am going to have to fill in the holes with
some more thorough testing next week.