From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: [RELOADING] how consistent should a powder measure be/
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <m0oDZkK-0002OoC@liasun6.epfl.ch> baechler@lia.di.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:
#If you really want to build match grade ammo, individual measurement
#cannot be avoided.

I beg to differ.  It's rare to even see a powder scale at a big
benchrest match.  Most competitors don't even know what the charge
weighs (despite the equipment list), they're thrown from a Culver
or Jones measure.  Admittedly, most powders used in BR are easy
to meter, but the fact remains that the vast majority of shooters
in the most accuracy-demanding shooting sport never weigh a charge.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: [RELOADING] how consistent should a powder measure be/
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <C9t81G.LFL@fc.hp.com> bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt) writes:
#Toby Bradshaw (toby@stein.u.washington.edu) wrote:
#
#: Admittedly, most powders used in BR are easy
#: to meter, but the fact remains that the vast majority of shooters
#: in the most accuracy-demanding shooting sport never weigh a charge.
#
#But the top shooters in the `other most accuracy-demanding shooting sport'
#do weigh powder charges to +/- one tenth of a grain.  This is highpower
#competition where a 20 fps velocity spread means 8 inches (eight tenths MOA)
#vertical stringing at 1000 yards using a .308 Win.  That same velocity
#spread will string only about 0.3 inches (one tenth MOA) at 300 yards
#in typical .22 and .24 caliber benchrest cartridges.

In my testing, 0.1gr is worth about 10fps in a 6PPC.  I chronographed
some test loads last weekend, thrown from a measure, and the two loads
I had were 3226 and 3254fps, each had an SD of 9fps.  I'd be surprised
if even half the SD is due to variation in powder charge, probably
half of it is the primer alone.  These were my best loads with two
different bullets, and the final test groups were 0.535" and 0.539"
at 300 yards.  In good conditions, I couldn't afford 0.3 of vertical
from the powder charge variation, and I don't get even 1 bullet of
vertical at 300 with a good load, all charges thrown from a measure.

#Weighing powder charges only becomes critical when ranges greater than
#300 yards are encountered and accuracy is the name of the game.  If the
#benchresters needed to weigh powder charges, they would.  They don't so
#they won't.

If the measure could only hold +/- a tenth, you would have 20fps extreme
spread just from powder charge, giving ~0.2" of vertical at 200 yards just
from the powder.  In good conditions, it's just about impossible to win
with that much vertical in a 200 yard target.  So, I'd argue that even
such small variations _do_ matter in benchrest, even at ranges under 300
yards.  Weighing the charges won't help, though, because the powder
measures can already throw to 0.1 grain or better.  Take a look at the
inside of a Jones measure, and how it cuts the powder grain.  One of our
local shooters is a fan of 4198, which is relatively long and skinny.  He
has no problem holding a tenth with a Jones measure.  Most any measure
will hold a tenth with H322, which is probably the most widely used
powder in BR these days.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: [RELOADING] how consistent should a powder measure be/
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <CA1753.5LC@fc.hp.com> bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbitt) writes:
#I think the most uniform-charge chucking measures are the Redding and
#RCBS for over-the-counter ones.  The Culver and Jones measures (at about
#3 to 3.5 C-notes each, as I remember) are the best in the world for a
#purely mechanical measure.

Culvers are running ~$180 the last time I heard, and Neil Jones
get $260 for his measure.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: RELOADING: Equipment advise Wanted:
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <2j8i9j$bcg@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
David Kardelis- I am the NRA <dak@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu> wrote:
#For the most part I load pistol on a Dillon Square Deal, and for
#large rifle I have an elctronic powder dribbler that works pretty well.
#I need something that will be accurate for midrange rifle loee
#are for 223 to 308 size loads. I am looking for accuracy so a bench rest measure
#is a possiblity.

All of the better measures I've used (RCBS, Redding) are plenty accurate
enough for precision shooting, assuming propellants with good metering
qualities are used.  The advantage of a good benchrest measure (Jones,
Culver, etc.) is that it's not only accurate, but *repeatable* when
settings are changed.  A powder scale gets little use when a good
micrometer measure is handy.  The micrometer adjustments available for the
RCBS (worst) and Redding (better) measures are very repeatable for each
individual measure, but don't have the "feel" (proportional to cost, of
course :) or powder grain-cutting ability of a Jones (best).  A Jones
setting of 50 clicks will deliver the same amount of powder as ANY
other Jones measure with a setting of 50, something that the RCBS
(don't know about the Redding) won't do.  Since most of us don't
have a bunch of different powder measures that we might accidentally
pick up on the way out the door to a benchrest match, it really only
matters how repeatable the individual measure is, not how uniformly
made are all its mechanical brethren.

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu

From: Gale McMillan <gale@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Powder Measure Comparison Info.
Date: 11 Oct 1998 10:31:29 -0400

While all powder measures may throw expectable charges if used with a
uniform motion the difference in the measures like the Bruno or Culver
type is that when you return to a setting it will through to a tenth the
same weight charge, I have an original Culver that has thrown over a
million charges and I would bet that if I went to the setting that I
used to throw 23 grs of BallC when I first got it, it will still throw
the same weight.The reason Bench rest shooters use this type measure is
so they can change charges at the range with confidence that they will
get the correct charge with out weighing it.
Gale McMillan