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From: John De Armond
Subject: Gun Cleaning systems
Date: 3 Jan 90 07:53:57 GMT
Organization: Rapid Deployment Systems (making go-fast things and things that-go fast)

This discussion of the Outers gun cleaning system made me want to relate
to the group a technique I've found to be quite effective.

The best chemical cleaner I've found is the common, ordinary cresylic
acid carburator dip.  I use the brand Chem-Dip which is available around
here from the car parts store for about $35 for 5 gallons.  Smaller 
containers are available.

	CAUTION:  This stuff is powerful.  It absolutely will remove
			  any organic materials from whatever it contacts.  This
			  included plastic bushings, bumpers, O-rings, paint
			  and grease.  The surface of the metal is left almost
			  surgically clean.  This stuff smells terrible and
			  irritates the skin.  Not good to get on you.  It 
			  does not affect blueing or parkerizing.

To use, remove the grips and any other plastic material.  Then simply
dip the gun in the stuff and leave it a couple of hours.  This stuff is
not an acid in the classic civilian interpretation; it will not eat away
metal.  However, it is powerful enough to eat away the baked-on carbon
on the tops of engine pistons.  On a gun, it eats away the organic material
that is interspersed with the fouling in the barrel.  The barrel will wipe
clean with a pass of a brass brush followed by a swab.

After removal from the dip, wash with a strong detergent and warm water,
dry and oil immediately.  The blueing will come out a strange grey color.
This is because there is absolutely no oil left on the gun.  The color
returns when you wipe it with oil.  Likewise, white metal will rust in
minutes unless oiled.  This is probably the cleanest the metal of your
gun has ever been.

I've been using this cleanup method for years on my Gold Cup, some Lugers
and the action parts from my M-1s and M-1As.  I have observed NO degradation
to any of the finishes.  The only caution is to lube everything after 
cleaning.  The dip removes the grease from unsuspecting places like the 
mainspring on Colts and Lugers.  The gas pistons on the rifles come out
absolutely spotless.

I can't stress enough the damage potential to organics.  If one  one 
wants to see this in action, drop an ordinary O-ring into the stuff and 
leave it overnight.  An inch diameter O-ring will come out 6 or 8 inches in
diameter with the rubber a half inch in diameter and so soft it disintegrates
in your hand.  Needless to say, use this stuff outside or on pavement.
Your vinyl floor will be history if you spill some.

Give it a try.  You'll like it.  Sure beats Hoppes and elbow grease.


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Chem Dip Carb Cleaner
Date: 9 Jan 91 08:33:28 GMT
Organization: Rapid Deployment Systems (making go-fast things and things that-go fast) (Ed Harris) writes:

>Your description of the Chem Dip cleaner sounds like DuPont Prep Sol 
>which I used to use and have been unable to get.  Could you post the 
>manufacturer of Chem Dip?  


Berryman Products Inc
3800 E Randol Mill Rd
Arlington, TX 76011

>Is it available from auto supply stores like 
>NAPA or Trak Auto?  

NAPA, Big A and Downey (regional) all carry this brand so you should be 
able to find it.  It's a white can with red and blue ink.

>Does it have to be disposed of as hazardous 
>material after use, or does the Material Safety Data Sheet contain any 
>particular wornings as to protective measures necessary, such as 
>gloves, respirators, etc.  I am looking for something which can be used 
>in a shop environment with ordinary precautions such as good 
>ventilation  and use of a protective ointment to prevent skin problems 
>from contact.  I assume the stuff is flammable...

The label says that it contains Cresylic Acid, methylene cloride and xylene.
Not something you wanna drink or swim in but not something to call the 
Hazmat team out for either.  There are the generic warning on the can 
about avoiding contact and not breathing vapors.  You'd have to work 
pretty hard to get around the odor in order to inhale any.  It really
stinks!  And a drop of 2 on your clothes will hang around and stink for
a long time.  There are no chronic fumes, as there is a layer of water
on top of the stuff to retard evaporation.  Even with my nose adjacent to
the can, I can't smell it with the lid on.

I use my can at the door of my garage and then step outdoors with the
cleaned parts and use my high pressure car wash on them.  That keeps
the odors outside.  I have some neoprene gloves I use mainly to keep
the stuff off my skin so it won't stink.  You don't want to get even
a few drops on you because of the odor.  Wetting your skin with the stuff
burns just like when you get paint remover on yourself (methylene cloride
again).  As to warnings, they have one of the most hilariously worded
warnings I've ever seen.  It states:

Caution:  Methlyene Cloride is known to the state of California to 
		  cause cancer in lab rats.

I don't want to make this stuff sound hard or dangerous to use because it
is not.  I have the gloves and a denim apron in order to avoid the odor
in my clothes and on my hands and used to use a pair of safety glasses
before age gave me the gift of the real things :-(  In other words, just
your basic solvent usage precautions.


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Gun Solvent Substitutes
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South. writes:

#I'm curious if anyone has come up with a cost-effective substitute for gun
#solvent.  I hate to  spend $3-$4 for a few ounces of "gun solvent" when I could
#probably buy some other type fluid at the same price for a gallon.  I realize
#harsher solvents could have undesired results on wood or plastic finishes.

I paid $12 for my last quart of Hoppes.  I can't imagine that being a hardship.
Nontheless, here are some alternatives.

Hoppes is primarily kerosene, turpentine and nitrobenzene.  Nitrobenzene
is not expensive in drum quantities ($20 a gallon or so) but very
expensive in the quantities you'd want to buy for homebrewing.
Try $72 a liter from Fisher.  All nitrohydrocarbons show at least some
cardiac activity and you've never thought you've died until you have
a nitro headache.  Proceed accordingly.

The military "Cleaner- Rifle Bore", Spec 2-117 - commonly found at gun
shows and surplus - is primarily kerosene and cresylic acid.  Cresylic acid
is the active ingredient in the so-called "heavy dip" carburator cleaner
available from auto parts stores in 1 and 5 gallon buckets at about $10
a gallon.  It is an excellent bore cleaner.  I've posted on the use of
carb cleaner before.  Cresylic acid has a couple of negatives.  First
is its odor.  Smells like its first cousin, Creosote.  Only worse.
It instantly penetrates the skin and guarantees you'll smell and taste
creosote for a day or so.  Because of this extremely unpleasant odor,
I use the same precautions when handling it as I do handling cyanide
plating solutions.  It will instantly strip the finish from wood,
etch and/or dissolve many plastics and cements and swells rubber like
nothing you've ever seen.  Drop a Volkswagen pushrod seal in some overnight
and then wear it as a bracelet.  If you use it with your gun, you MUST
remove any organics (wood, plastics, etc.)  The kerosene in the Mil Spec
bore cleaner seems to mute some of these effects but it also mutes
its cleaning ability.

There you have it.  I use carb cleaner to clean my pistols after
stripping off the grips and other plastics.  Mostly I just use Hoppes.
I only use a quart or two a year so I think I can afford the toll.


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