From: Doug Gwyn <gwyn@smoke.brl.mil>
Subject: Re: Advice for rifle (can only have 1)
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.

In article <2954213560.0.p00302@psilink.com> p00302@psilink.com (Julius
Chang) writes:

#What is the weakness of the gun safes -- physical attack or lock
#manipulation?  Is this weakness common knowledge among burglars,
#along the lines of the "New York Method" for popping older U-shaped
#bike locks?

Generally, gun safes are relatively easy to open by forcible means,
for example pulling the dial, drilling to monitor the gate area,
dialing for gate alignment, and possibly offsetting the combination,
depending on where the drilling was done relative to the operating
date.  Ease of manipulation varies with the specific lock; some can
be opened almost automatically in a few minutes (especially with
appropriate specialized equipment) while some are hard to manipulate.
No need to manipulate when there are easier ways to open the safe,
except in cases where one doesn't want to leave behind any sign of
forcible entry.

#Are some safes better than others, e.g. Browning vs. Fort Knox vs.
#Treadlok vs. Liberty vs. National Security vs. Amsec vs. Tex Safe?

I'm sure some are better than others with respect to either or
both burglary and fire protection, but I'm not in a position to
make recommendations other than to visit a reputable safe & vault
specialty shop and solicit the advice of an expert safeman there.

#How can one get a copy of this National Locksmith article?

At this point I suppose you'd have to get it from some National
Locksmith Association member.  Try asking around at local locksmiths,
who may or may not choose to cooperate in this matter.  Tell them
you want a copy of Dave McOmie's article "Opening a Fort Knox" from
the August 1993 issue.

From: "Julius Chang" <p00302@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Gun safe floor loads
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l

I was told by a person at Boston Lock and Safe that one technique
to stop (or slow down) the safebreaker who uses a burning rod is
to embed some rude, rubbery material in the safe walls.  When the
rod hits that stuff, a thick and noxious black cloud of smoke
pours out.  Apparently, this is one method of protecting jeweler's
safes from attack.

-Julius

From: "Julius Chang" <p00302@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Gun storage (safes)
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link

#DATE:   8 Jun 1994 14:43:22 -0400
#FROM:   Steven Speer <ses@hpfcla.fc.hp.com>
#
#Robert Fickling (bigbob@crl.com) wrote:
#
#: Think about this. If you buy a safe light enough that you can move it
#: yourself, so can the thief. Any safe that weighs less than a ton is
#: a total joke. :-)
#
#This is a huge over statement.  It took three adults, a stair-walking
#dolly and an hour to get the last 750 lb safe I helped move into a basement.
#It was then filled with guns/ammo/etc which had to easily put it at over a
#1000 lbs.  There is no band of punk hoodlums (the vast majority of those
#who would try to rob your house) that could get the thing out of there.

	Don't forget -- you are trying *carefully* to move the
	safe to its final resting place.  Thieves have no such
	worries.  If the safe is going downhill, they might just
	let gravity do the work.  Going uphill, they might lay
	the safe on its side and push it up the stairs.

	If the stairs are carpeted, moving a safe in this manner
	is even easier.  In any case, the thieves won't care
	about the damaged paint job or banged-up walls.

	I've observed professional movers (United and Allied) move
	safes with little problem.  These were Brownings and Libertys
	of the common 60x30x25 size.

	Once the safe is outside, there is no problem in moving it.
	I moved a Liberty L-25 (with interior -- empty weight probably
	about 600 lbs) solo using a refrigerator dolly.  Once I got
	the whole thing on the sidewalk, it rolled like a dream.
	Just roll it right onto a truck equipped with a power liftgate
	and you're off.

	To put this in perspective, I am 5' 9", 145 lbs., bench
	about 200 lbs., and run about 2500 miles/year.

	-Julius

From: "Julius Chang" <p00302@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Gun storage (safes)
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link

#DATE:   10 Jun 1994 11:15:14 -0400
#FROM:   Lee DeRaud <deraud@power.amasd.anatcp.rockwell.com>
#
#Time for a reality check:
#
#"Julius Chang" <p00302@psilink.com> writes:
###Steven Speer <ses@hpfcla.fc.hp.com> writes:
###Robert Fickling (bigbob@crl.com) wrote:
###: Think about this. If you buy a safe light enough that you can move it
###: yourself, so can the thief. Any safe that weighs less than a ton is
###: a total joke. :-)
###This is a huge over statement.  It took three adults, a stair-walking
###dolly and an hour to get the last 750 lb safe I helped move into a basement.
###It was then filled with guns/ammo/etc which had to easily put it at over a
###1000 lbs.  There is no band of punk hoodlums (the vast majority of those
###who would try to rob your house) that could get the thing out of there.
##Don't forget -- you are trying *carefully* to move the
##safe to its final resting place.  Thieves have no such
##worries.  If the safe is going downhill, they might just
##let gravity do the work.  Going uphill, they might lay
##the safe on its side and push it up the stairs.
#
#Going downhill, they still have to get it to the head of the stairs
#before gravity starts to help. Going uphill (ignoring friction),
#sliding a 750lb safe up stairs is like benchpressing 500lbs, except
#that they have to move it 15 *feet* instead of 15 *inches*.
#
##I've observed professional movers (United and Allied) move
##safes with little problem.  These were Brownings and Libertys
##of the common 60x30x25 size.
#
#Little *problem*, true...but *much* time and effort, from a crew
#of guys that know what they're doing.  True, the thieves aren't
#concerned about wall damage, but the bulk *size* of the thing
#limits the number of people that can apply muscle to it in a
#hall or on the stairs.
#

	I can move a 600 lb. safe by myself by swiveling it around
	on the floor.  There is no problem positioning it in a
	doorway or at a stairway.

	I have personally seen about five people (two above and
	three below) move a 600 lb. Liberty L-25 up flight of
	13 steps in about 10 seconds.  It wouldn't have mattered
	how many steps there were unless it was a really long
	distance.

	They laid the safe on its side and slid the box right
	up the steps (carpeted).  No sweat.

	Three people couldn't quite do it.  They kept slipping on
	the carpet.

	Going downstairs, I saw *one* United Van Lines mover put
	a Mosler firesafe (29H x 22W x 22D) on his back and walk
	it down.  I estimate that the safe weighs 250 lbs.

##Once the safe is outside, there is no problem in moving it.
##I moved a Liberty L-25 (with interior -- empty weight probably
##about 600 lbs) solo using a refrigerator dolly.  Once I got
##the whole thing on the sidewalk, it rolled like a dream.
##Just roll it right onto a truck equipped with a power liftgate
##and you're off.
#
#Somehow, "refrigerator dolly" and "power liftgate" are not terms
#I normally associate with "band of punk hoodlums" :-)

	Any U-Haul place can rent you the above.  If you can't
	find a truck with a power liftgate, then about three
	people can move a 600 lb. safe up the ramp that comes with
	most any U-Haul truck.

##To put this in perspective, I am 5' 9", 145 lbs., bench
##about 200 lbs., and run about 2500 miles/year.
#
#Somehow, "bench about 200lbs" and "run about 2500 miles/year"
#are not terms I normally associate with "band of punk hoodlums" :-)


	This is meaningless.  The point was to give a reference
	point.  I'm sure that "punk hoodlums" come in much larger
	sizes than 5' 9" and 145 lbs.  And a lot of people can
	bench 200 lbs. simply because of sheer body mass.

###The safe salesman did recommend that you bolt it to the floor or wall so
###that they wouldn't get frustrated and just tip it over which might damage
###some contents.
#
#"More tools! Bring the torch and the pneumatic hammer!" The point of
#the exercise is to *slow down* the professional thief to the point

	Well, the original claim was that a 1000 lb. safe wasn't going
	anywhere.  No one claimed that it was bolted down.  The
	implication was that the safe's dead weight was enough to
	stop thieves.  Although I grant that there is a big difference
	between 600 lbs vs. 1000 lbs., it is this sort of overconfidence
	that results in a burglary loss.

	-Julius