From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Subject: Re: cartr. conv's to 45 ACP
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory

In article <38739@mimsy.umd.edu> hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays) writes:
# [regarding making 45 ACP brass from 308 or 30-06 brass]
#Just as a warning, I've never tried sizing such cases in a carbide
#die, so there might be some problems with that, and the harder bases.
[near the case head]

I've full-length resized shortened 308 & '06 brass with no problem with 
my RCBS carbide size die but it makes me _VERY_ nervous.  I've done only
about 100 of them.  RCBS is awfully good about such things if you _do_
embarrass yourself.

    JHBercovitz@lbl.gov    (John Bercovitz)

From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Subject: Re: .308 brass into .45 cases and .451 mag.
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory

In article <38760@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu 
(James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:
#Re: using cut down .308 brass for strong durable .45 cases.
#How hot would you feel safe loading these rounds?  Hotter than
#factory +P?

Well, I guess it would depend on who was going to fire them.  8-{)}
The gun's not going to fail immediately with even extremely hot loads.
That's not the problem; the problem is that a 1911's locking surfaces 
get beaten up with a steady diet of hot loads.  The vertical faces of 
those locking ribs on top of the barrel get so's they're not so vertical
anymore - they get slanty and, of course, that makes them even less 
able to handle the force.  In my experience, anything much over nominal
pressures will eventually wreck the surfaces. I've seen one wrecked by
tens of rounds the pressure of which I would estimate to be under 30,000 psi. 
At nominal pressures, the gun will last almost indefinitely with very little 
maintenance.

Normal-pressure cartridges operate below the yield strength of the materials
used in the pistol; high-pressure rounds operate slightly above the yield 
strength but well below the ultimate strength.  If you raise the yield
strength, you reduce the ductility which isn't so good because the ductility
gives you a sort of safety cushion: you overload and it bends instead of
fracturing so you quit the offending activity.

You can raise the tolerable pressure slightly by buying an oversized barrel
and fitting it to the slide.  This will give you the maximum locking surface
area.  You have to wonder if it's worth it, though.

      JHBercovitz@lbl.gov    (John Bercovitz)

From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Subject: Re: modified .40 S&W possible? / modified .45
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <46713@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu
(James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:

#How about cutting .45 mag or .308 down to .45 ACP?

Yes.  It works.

#Do you have to ream out the case so it's not too tight to
#get the bullet in?

It's either that or open up the chamber.  8-)

#The rim is also different on the .45 mag and .308.   How significant
#is this, enough to cause extraction problems in most guns?

No.  Extraction is fine.  Works with the '06 base too.  The 45 WinMag rim
is pretty close to the 45 ACP rim but usually you need a special shell
holder.  This special shell holder works fine on 45 ACP brass though.
The 308 and 45 ACP shell holders are interchangeable, as I'm sure you know.

One other little problem is that you get reduced case capacity with
either of these conversions.  (More loss with the 308.)  You have to
load very hot to make up for this loss.  That, in turn, is very hard
on the locking lugs of a 1911.  I've abandonded all efforts in this
area because of this last problem.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)

From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Subject: Re: modified .40 S&W possible? / modified .45/ .45 mag
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <46798@mimsy.umd.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu
(James Douglas Del Vecchio) writes:

###How about cutting .45 mag or .308 down to .45 ACP?

#That, in turn, is very hard
##on the locking lugs of a 1911.  I've abandoned all efforts in this
##area because of this last problem.

#Ok, I guess any "hot idea" I can come up re guns has been thought of
#and tried.

That I doubt.  8-)

#How about plain old .45 Winchester mag pistols?    Any merit in the
#idea?   Ever tried it John?   Anybody?

I've tried the T/C and the Grizzly in 45 WM.  The Grizzly is really very
comfortable because it's so massive.  Unfortunately, the magazine is extra
deep in the fore and aft direction to accommodate the long cartridges.  I've
got stubby fingers so that's a problem.  [Actually, the rest of y'all
folks are just not as evolved and so you have these looong fingers
suitable for swinging from limb to limb.  8-)]  The Grizzly also spreads
out the recoil some because of the semi-auto action whereas the T/C
has a little snappier recoil and it gets it over with quickly - you
don't have to wait for it to get done going clinkety clank like you
do with a semi-auto.

#    The stats look just like .44 mag (230 grn FMJ ~1300-1400 fps).  44 mag
#seems to be $20-25 a box, is .45 mag even worse?   Is there any advantage
#the .45 mag has over .44 mag?   How about for reloading.   I can get
#nice new .45 mag brass in shops around here for about $17/100.

Well, the 44 has been around a long time and will not become an orphan
in our lifetime unless the commies get their way.  8-)  I'm not too sure
about the 45 WinMag over the long haul.  The 45 WinMag does have some
advantages to be sure - it is an auto cartridge so it feeds more reliably
in an auto than a rimmed cartridge.  It has thicker walls at the mouth and
is less subject to mouth splits - remember the 44 is a stretched S&W Spl
which is a stretched what? Russian?  Which is a stretched S&W American?
Anyway, these cartridges which are based on older revolver cartridges
tend to have thin walls.  I don't mean to say that thin walls cause mouth
splits but the old cartridges were looser in their chambers and they get
worked a lot during resizing to bring them back down to bullet-gripping
size.  And it's easy to resize them because they are so thin.  Anyway,
the 45 WM also has more meat at the head end to compensate for a
chamber's feed ramp allowing a more generous ramp.  Revolver cartridges
don't need that much reinforcement because revolvers [except PPC guns 8-)]
don't have ramps.  All this results in the 45 WM having a shorter chamber
length inside the cartridge and having to run at slightly higher
pressures to completely equal a 44 RemMag.  Also, the 45 WM uses
bullets designed for autos which again results in more feed reliability.
However, you may like the selection of revolver bullets better if
hunting is your purpose.  As an aside, the Grizzlies I've fired have been
very accurate.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)

From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Subject: Re: modified .40 S&W possible? / modified .45/ .45 mag
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <46856@mimsy.umd.edu> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov
(John Bercovitz) writes:

[stuff deleted]
#...tend to have thin walls.  I don't mean to say that thin walls cause mouth
#splits but the old cartridges were looser in their chambers and they get
#worked a lot during resizing to bring them back down to bullet-gripping
#size.  ........
[stuff deleted]

I realized I had misspoken while on the way home for the weekend:
I was thinking of "body splits near the mouth" when I said "mouth splits".
Mouth splits, those little tiny splits which start at the mouth of the
case, are caused by reloading a number of times using a heavy roll crimp.
Different cause, different effect.  Sorry.  8-(

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)