From: jfross@ix.netcom.com (John Ross)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on FBI Shootout in Miami wanted
Date: 29 May 1997 09:05:19 -0400

On 27 May 1997 16:57:17 -0400, deano@primenet.com (deano) wrote:

#	In John Ross's novel "Unintended Consequences" there is a blow-by-blow
#of this case. In his version the FBI had a couple of guys with machine
#guns who would have been in the shoot-out, but they were busy doing
#extra-curricular activities and missed it. It would be good to know
#how much truth and how much fiction he used in that account. He
#sometimes posts here, so maybe he'll comment.

The basic account is true, although the restaurant dialogue is
invented.  The positions were a guess.  Could have been taking turns,
could have been a simultaneous DP.  I opted for a middle-of-the-road
assumption...

The first printing of my book contained the FBI-supplied inaccuracy
that Michael Platt was bleeding to death from a heart wound that he
could not have survived even had he immediately been airlifted to a
hospital.

Marty Fackler set me straight that the wound was to Platt's brachial
artery (in his arm), and though he was indeed bleeding to death, in
actual fact if the shooting had stopped and he had used his free hand
to pinch off the wound, he could have easily made it to a hospital and
recovered.  This correction is present in the second and third (and
all subsequent) printings.

FWIW, a reader who says he is in the FBI told me that mine is the most
accurate account of the FBI shootout he has read.

I have not seen any TV versions of this event, but my guess is they
are crap.  For those who are genuinely interested, I recommend you get
hold of the FBI's own reenactment tape of the shootout which they made
for their own internal training purposes.  In my book, virtually all
of the thoughts ascribed to FBI agents *in the shootout* come directly
from their taped personal statements about what they were thinking at
the time.  The thoughts of the agents in the restaurant are made up
but, IMO, plausible.

I don't know where the general public can get a copy of this tape, but
ask around.  It's not classified or anything...

JR

From: "jmarch" <jmarch@ricochet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on FBI Shootout in Miami wanted
Date: 27 May 1997 08:37:17 -0400

----------
# From: Jim Ericson <jericson@erinet.com>
# Newsgroups: rec.guns
# Subject: Info on FBI Shootout in Miami wanted
# Date: Monday, May 26, 1997 10:56 AM
#
#
#
# I am looking for info on the shootout several years ago in Miami, Florida
# between FBI agents and bank robbers. (This had at least one TV movie made
# about it, and is/was referred to as the bloodiest day in FBI history)
#
# Is there any news clippings on the internet about it? Primarily, I am
# interested in knowing how many FBI agents were killed/wounded in the
# shootout. I had some friends say 5 agents were killed, but this seems real
# high to me. If you have any info, I would be most appreciative.

Masaad Ayoob did a detailed blow-by-blow of that mess for one of the gun
rags and I cannot for the life of me remember which.  It had a *lot* of
details that the movie got wrong, such as when the agent's cars finally
surrounded the crooks it was in a dirt lot and all the dust made the first
couple of seconds a blind nightmare.  Many of the agents had unholstered
their main duty weapons and put them on the seat next to them in
anticipation of a dust-up, but the sudden halt to the car chase dumped them
down near the gas pedals so much of the fight was carried out with backup
snubbies and such.

Not that the robbers were any better.  The first thing the driver did was
point a Magnum revolver out the passenger window, putting the gun inches
from his partner's head, and fired.  Blew out both the guy's eardrums,
mostly taking him out of the fight.  The guy who was left after that took a
9mm round that skimmed up his arm and entered the chest cavity, stopping
*just* barely short of the heart.  Everyone kinda went "Damn if only that
9mm had penetrated better!" hence the experiment with the 10mm (and
deeper-penetrating 9s in other agencies)...but the 10 was too hot, it broke
guns and the agents didn't like the recoil so they lightened the springs
and dropped the powder charge which led directly to the .40S&W round, and
now the FBI's gone .45ACP...all stemming from this shootout!

Total rounds fired was 144, as I recall.  The ending was the most
fascinating part...one wounded agent got somewhat pissed, loaded up a .38
snub, and decided either he was gonna die or the last of the two stubborn
assholes was...he broke cover, and while advancing to point-blank range
just kept firing, over and over and over, concentrating *only* on sights
and trigger pull.  Someone else finally removed the repeatedly clicking
empty gun from his hands, but damned if he didn't smoke the guy despite
having come mentally unglued, not that I blame him, nor did the agency.

NOTE: This last is the *key* to understanding why people sometimes fill a
corpse with lead, emptying their whole 18-shot or whatever gun into some
freak and then the District Attorney's office gets all hot about how you
"made DAMN sure he was dead, didn't you, asshole?!?".  Your life is in real
danger and the *only* thing left that matters is sights and trigger, to the
exclusion of *ALL* else including pain, sound, whatever; it's got nothing
to do with bloodthirsty.

Can't remember the body count...5 sounds about right though, it was a big
mess and led directly to the development of the .40S&W.

From: Bill Salmon <bsalmon@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on FBI Shootout in Miami wanted
Date: 27 May 1997 08:41:33 -0400

Jim Ericson wrote:
#
# I am looking for info on the shootout several years ago in Miami, Florida
# between FBI agents and bank robbers. ...
#
# Primarily, I am
# interested in knowing how many FBI agents were killed/wounded in the
# shootout. I had some friends say 5 agents were killed, but this seems real
# high to me. If you have any info, I would be most appreciative.

Two FBI agents were killed and five wounded. Of the latter, three were
permanently crippled. In addition, both bad guys were killed.

One detailed account of this shootout, with an analysis of the tactical
errors, appears in Massad Ayoob's book, THE AYOOB FILES: THE BOOK
(Police Bookshelf, 1994).

Bill


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