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From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

##From article <1992Aug31.041043.17914@nuscc.nus.sg>, by
## swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)):
##
## IS it really possible to carry a resonable calibre (.38, .45, .357)
## handgun in your trouser pocket with reasonable concealment and
## safety?
#
#I think the pocket in question is generally a coat/jacket pocket
#rather than a pants pocket although back pocket carry is not too
#uncommon.

In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the
ticket.  I can hold the entire pistol cocealed in my fist.  There is
no evidence of a gun being in my pocket even when sitting.  And when
I find myself in a threatening situation, I can simply put my hand
in my pocket, grab the gun and be ready for trouble in an instant.

Think about this for a moment.  If you're walking in an area that makes
the hair stand up on your neck, you can have the pistol cocked and
ready to go while still in your pocket.  If, say, a mugger confronts
you, no particular move to get the gun is necessary.  Simply withdrawing
your hand from your pocket puts the pistol in the ready to fire
position.  The element of surprise is on your side.  If the first shot
does not stop him, the second one will or at least you'll have
time to run.  I personally don't care about accuracy or pointability
or all that other stuff the gun rags talk about for the simple
reason that if I'm far enough away from the perp that I have to
take aim, I'm gonna be running instead.  No shootout at the OK corral
for me.

To me the pocket pistol is the difference between being armed and only
carrying a pistol.  That pistol in the cocealed holster is not of
much use when you have your hands on your head.

John


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:

#jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:

##In my case, "pocket  carry" is just that, one of the front pockets in
##my trousers.  If the .22 mag is accepted as a defense round (it is for
##me), then the North American Arms 5 shot pocket revolver is just the

#What kind of vel can you get out a 22 mag with one of those short
#barreled things?   I would go for the heaviest JHP I could find
#for that use.  I've seen 50 gr, I don't know about 55 gr.

I've never chrono'd the thing.  Guess I should. I just never got anxious
over the performance considering that if it ever got fired in anger
it would probably be stuck in the perp's gut.  That's cuz I'm runnin' if
I can.

#Would the .22 mag be appreciably better than .22 LR stingers out
#of the same size gun?

Oh yes.  The thing that opened my eyes (other than shooting it, of course),
was when I was attending what passed for a PO-lice "accademy" (just to
get the pronunciation right) and the instructor demonstrated a 22 mag
penetrating the dept's ballistic vest when fired from A Ruger Single six
(6 inch barrel.)  I don't recall the protection ratings of the vests,
probably at the bottom, knowing that dept, but the point was made.
Now the NAA .22 mag only has about an inch of barrel but the bullet
will still penetrate several pine planks - my only test to date.

The NAA is a real handful.  My wife does not like shooting it even though
my .45ACP and even a friend's .44 mag doesn't bother her.  The .22 mag
IMHO is the most underrated cartridge going right now.

John




From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .22 LR -- don't underestimate how dangerous they are
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

#	Just as a data point, a .45ACP Haskall (of which I happen to have
#an example of) runs only $125 nominally, including an extra 7-round
#magazine.  No, it won't do MOA shots.  It will, however, hit soup cans at
#fifteen feet without difficulty.  When it comes to self-defense guns,
#we have many criteria we like to apply to them.  In my view, however, I'll
#take that cheap Haskall over my Ruger Mark II any day of the week for a
#self-defense gun.  Above all, don't think price is an object to having a
#self-defense cannon.  It won't be a great cannon, but would be rather be
#minus a cheap cannon and alive or shooting sub-MOA groups and hitting
#your thug with a .22?

I'm a .45 fan myself and consider anything smaller for home defence just
something to get their attention with so I can get a better sight
picture.  However that is all beside the point for a carry gun.  The
point is, if you don't have your carry piece with you, it does not
matter what caliber it is.  Dan'd .45 would be practically useless as a
carry gun in a place like Atlanta because people who carry - even
legally - are harrassed by the cops when discovered and because Ga's CCW
law makes it illegal to carry just about any place one would likely need
a gun.  That means absolute concealment.  As a practical matter, that
means either a small gun or no gun at all.

My criteria for a carry gun is that it has to be hideable in the front
pocket, it cannot present the outline of a gun through reasonably loose
causal or dress pants, it has to tolerate the environment (a pocket is
awfully dirty) and it has to have some reasonable chance of a quick
kill.  Accuracy does not matter much because there is practically no
chance that I'll get in a shootout with someone on the street.  If
there is enough distance between us that accuracy matters, I'll be running
or hiding instead of shooting.  Pocket is essential because it means I
can walk with my gun in my hand ready for action without ever telegraphing
my actions to others AND it means that if I'm confronted, withdrawing my
hand from my pocket means I have the gun ready to fire.

After developing the above set of criteria and after shooting several small
guns and evaluating their effects on wet phonebooks and game or pest animals,
my choice is the NA Arms .22 mag mini-revolver.  The .22 mag, even from
that short barrel generates more penetration and tissue damage than
either the .25 acp or the .32, the only real alternatives.  I don't want
an auto because of the possibility of having to shoot through my pants with
the resultant slide jam.

The .22 mag is not my ONLY protection gun, of course.  there's a .45
within easy reach of most anywhere I am regularly including my car.
BUT.  The .22 is also always there. If I used anything else, there would
be occasions when I simply could not carry and Murph says that will
be exactly when I need it.  Ye olde saying:  A small gun is always better
than no gun.

john




From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .22 LR work in .22 Mag revolvers
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

adametz_dal@csusys.ctstateu.edu writes:

##I'm interested in the discussion of the Taurus .22 (and .22 mag) revolvers
##- they sound interesting.  I was getting ready to buy a .22 pistol (Ruger
##or Browning), but a revolver would be nice too.  I'm curious though - can
##you fire .22 LR ammunition in a .22 mag revolver?  That would allow cheap
##target practice, as well as a nice small game gun.
##   Thanks,
##      Brian

#Wellllll...you *could*, but I would recommend against it.

#The case for the .22 magnum is just a few thousanths of an inch larger
#than the .22 long rifle.  If you insert a .22 LR round into .22 mag
#cylinder, it will be a little loose.

#Although it is unlikely that the cylinder will be damaged, the ability
#of the case to expand larger than it should is something to be avoided
#regardless.

No idea where these notions come from.  I've shot .22LR in my NA mini
.22 mag (to reduce stress during practice on this very light gun) and
my Ruger Single Six (when I'm too lazy to change the cylinder or left
the .22LR at home) for years.  The only discernable difference is the
.22LR case gets a bit fat as it expands to fill the somewhat larger
.22WMR chamber.  Of no concern unless you've figured out how to
reload .22s (and would bother).

#Besides, the escape of the pressure into case expansion will mean that much
#less pressure into driving the bullet.  Therefore, accuracy and velocity will
#be degraded.

Case expansion requires only a trivial amount of energy, certainly not enough
to materially affect velocity.  What DOES affect accuracy is not the case
expansion but rather the bullet impacting the cylinder step at the end
of the .22WMR chamber.  This step shaves lead and somewhat upsets the
bullet.  The degradation of accuracy is slight and perfectly tolerable
for plinking.  The MAJOR consideration is that the shaved lead must
be removed from the chamber before .22WMR ammo will again chamber.
A quick swipe with the brass brush takes care of that one.

#Some manufacturers (at least H&R did) will make an interchangable cylinder
#for their .22 revolvers, one specifically for .22 LR, and another for
#.22 mag.  This is what you should look into.

And for those models where there are not interchangeable cylinders, he needed
his original question answered, which I have done.

John



From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: VERY small pocket gun options (AMT DAO)
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

denete@phoenix.cs.uga.edu (David Enete) writes:

#	Why not a derringer chambered for .410 shot shell?  The American
#Derringer Co. also produces .410 buck for this .410.  It has 3 .410 shot.  I
#guess the up-close and personal use of such a round would be impressive.

These are essentially worthless.  There is no barrel to speak of so
there's no time for the powder to burn.  My father picked up one of these
at a flea market.  Everyone was afraid to shoot it so I did.
It did little more than eject the shot from the primer's energy.  I was
not impressed.

He also has one of those .44 mag over/under derrigners.  I am similarly
unimpressed.  It makes a lot of noise, a lot of recoil, a lot of flash
and blast but little bullet acceleration.  It is probably fatal when buried
in the flesh of the perp but I'd not want to stake my life on it.  The
main use of this little gun, as with the shotpistol, is to impress
the uninitiated.

After a lot of research and testing, my very small pocket gun is the
North American Arms .22 Mag mini revolver.  5 shots, almost an inch and
a half of barrel and a very fast cartridge.  Yes, it makes a lot of
blast and noise and a non-trivial amount of recoil but the bullet will
penetrate an Atlanta phone book which is significant.

John



From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: VERY small pocket gun options (AMT DAO)
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

Seth Adam Eliot <se08+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

## then getting a North American Arms Mini-Revolver in either .22 or .22WMR.

#A friend of mine picked up a new NAA mini-revolver Black Widow (comes
#with .22lr and .22wmr cylinders).  The cylinders are loaded/changed by
#completely removing the pin on which it rotates.  this pin would
#spontaneously decide to come loose almost every other cylinderful, thus
#rendering the gun inoperable.

FerChristsake, man, this is not a target pistol!  This is a tiny, powerful
self-defence gun for when you just can't carry anything larger.
I'd be very satisfied with mine if it lasts 500 rounds.  For the record,
I've never heard of the cylinder pin backing out on one of these but
even if it did, I'd not consider it a major defect and would certainly
be something easily corrected.

#Also, the mechanics of this gun aren't that great.  Loading is kinda a
#pain (although I suppose you get used to it).  And rapid fire, which is
#probably necessary with a little .22 in defense situations, was very
#difficult with the single action mechanism.  I found myself cockingthe
#hammer just to have it fall again.  I'm still not sure whether this was
#do to the gun, or my finger being on the trigger.  Yes, I know my finger
#should be off the trigger when cocking it, but with this guns
#ergonomics, it's easy to not do that.

Whattya expect, a thumbhole grip? :-)  I've found through practice that
after the first shot, simply holding the trigger with my index finger
while operating the hammer with my thumb makes for rapid but aimable
fire.

John



From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: VERY small pocket gun options (AMT DAO)
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman) writes:

[me]
##These are essentially worthless.  There is no barrel to speak of so
##there's no time for the powder to burn.  My father picked up one of these
##at a flea market.  Everyone was afraid to shoot it so I did.
##It did little more than eject the shot from the primer's energy.  I was
##not impressed.

#Looks like I'm disagreeing with John again.

And probably making up facts again like you did on Ga hunting regulations.

#I bought a F.M.J. .45LC/.410
#derringer from our friends in Ducktown Tenn over the weekend, along

Hmm.  Ga citizen buying a pistol in Tenn bypassing the waiting period
too.  Smells like a strawman transaction to me.

#with some of ADC's 000 buck loads, some Winchester rifled slugs, and
#reached into my bag of .45LC reloads for some live fire testing. This
#thing is *loud*, and stings a bit, but calling it a derringer may be
#stretching that definition since it has a 3 inch (breech to muzzle) barrel
#and an overall length of 6.25 inches. Using the standard Atlanta Residential
#Phonebook media (dry), the buckshot penetrated to the Robinsons, the slugs
#went through and also penetrated the Business directory, and the .45LC also
#went through to Towing in the Yellow Pages vol 2, and generated a *huge* ball
#of flame out the muzzle. I won't try the latter again.  My .45LC loads
#generally belong in my Casull. It *hurt* to fire, but Ducktown steel stood
#up to this "proof" test. The barrel wall thickness measures .223, and the
#breech face and frame are welded up 1/8 inch steel plate stock. It's a crude
#looking sucker, but appears strong enough.

This gun is quite a bit different than my father's single shot pistol in
which the the shotgun case comes to within a half inch of the muzzle.
Your narrative simply proves the value of even a little bit of barrel.
Of course, that brute you have is hardly an easily concealed weapon,
particularly for light summer clothing, as the original poster in
this thread asked about.

#As a note, shotgun powders are generally faster burning than all but the
#fastest pistol powders, and considerably faster than the .22WMR powder,
#intended as it is for use in rifles. So the shotshells should perform
#better in short barrels than the other loads.

##After a lot of research and testing, my very small pocket gun is the
##North American Arms .22 Mag mini revolver.  5 shots, almost an inch and
##a half of barrel and a very fast cartridge.  Yes, it makes a lot of
##blast and noise and a non-trivial amount of recoil but the bullet will
##penetrate an Atlanta phone book which is significant.

#I also bought a Davis derringer in .22WMR after listening to John extoll
#the merits of the .22WMR. It's a much nicer looking, and much smaller,
#two shot gun, I got the nickel version. The barrels are 2.25 inches
#(breech to muzzle) and the gun is only 4 inches overall. This thing is
#also very loud, and blows a big fireball, but recoil is modest. Shooting
#Winchester Super-X loads (40 gr jacketed hollowpoint), it penetrated to
#Parsons in the Phone book with only modest mushrooming to about .28 caliber.

You should have bought a real gun like the NAA which has a 3" breech
to muzzle, 5 inch overall length and will make it to the "Z"s.  Again, a
little barrel goes a long way.

#The
#first rule of gunfighting is "bring a gun" and I guess a Davis in the
#pocket is better than a .45 back on the nightstand.

Now we're getting close.

John


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .380acp for protection enough and more on the .22 mag.
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

ses@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Steven Speer) writes:

#Erston Reich III (er3@goshen.connected.com) wrote:

#: Your points are.. intresting.  You maintain that, armed with a 9x17mm
#: (.380 acp), I would not be able to neutralize an attacker before they
#: could attack me?  That's a silly statement.

#: 9x17mm is a good caliber, along with many others.  Don't be worry about
#: it not being 'powerful' enough.  If you are concerned about that, shoot
#: more of them at the target. :-)

#it's worth.  If all you read is opinion, then all you get out of it is one
#more opinion.  The fact that the gun exists at all tells you somebody thinks
#it's OK, but that's about it.

Since all this is opinion, that's what we'll talk about.

#Any gun can kill.  Any gun can stop an attack under the right conditions.

And any gun in your hand during a confrontation is better than any cannon
laying on your dresser or in your car because it was too big to conveniently
carry.

#In general, the larger and faster the bullet moves, the more relaxed the
#conditions become for stopping the attack.  The .380 ACP is a relatively
#slow, relatively light bullet.

Compared to what?  I'm not a 9mm nor a .380 fan but the two compare
quite well:


                        Federal 380AP 380 Auto Pistol MC
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight .........  95 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.355
      Sectional Density ..... 0.108        Coefficient of Form ... 1.313
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.082        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.082
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0      982     203.4    0.4142     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      10      961     194.9    0.4055     0.0     0.1     0.2    0.5   0.031
      20      942     187.0    0.3972     0.2     0.2     0.7    1.1   0.062
      30      923     179.6    0.3893     0.4     0.5     1.7    1.7   0.095
      40      905     172.6    0.3816     0.8     0.9     3.1    2.2   0.127
      50      887     166.0    0.3743     1.3     1.4     4.8    2.8   0.161

                      Federal 9AP 9mm Luger Auto Pistol MC
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight ......... 123 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.355
      Sectional Density ..... 0.139        Coefficient of Form ... 0.996
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.140        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.140
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0     1096     328.0    0.5986     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      10     1077     316.8    0.5883     0.0     0.0     0.1    0.5   0.028
      20     1059     306.5    0.5786     0.1     0.2     0.6    1.0   0.056
      30     1043     297.0    0.5696     0.3     0.4     1.3    1.5   0.084
      40     1027     288.2    0.5610     0.6     0.7     2.4    2.0   0.113
      50     1013     280.0    0.5530     1.0     1.0     3.8    2.5   0.143

Both of these calculations use the numbers listed in the Lyman manual
as duplicating the factory loading.  The 9mm is a third more powerful
than the .380.  Big deal.  So fire two shots.

#That restricts the number of situations
#that it can be effectively employed in.  No police dept. I know of has
#selected this cartridge in the US.

If the police had to follow the same rules as civilians and could not
strap wundernines or hand cannons on their hips, they'd choose
guns in this range too.  When they DO have to carry deep concealed
the .380 is very popular.

#I know a lot of people who watch too much TV.  Many believe that any bullet
#that hits a bad guy, regardless of details, will immediately send him flying
#through the nearest plate glass window.  If the bullet is jacketed, it can
#make a car flip over if you hit it in the right place.  Some of these guys
#even think that a short barreled pistol loaded with .22 LR cartridges is a
#'good' choice for self defense.  Unless they are talking this trash to my
#friends who might not know better, I usually just nod and change the subject
#to family illnesses.

Unfortunately there are far too many people who read and believe way too
much tripe from the gun magazines.  A .45 or a wundernine might be
the optimum hand cannon but when you cannot carry one either because it
cannot be concealed or because any sort of carry is illegal, then
a small gun is better than nothing.  I hope you won't try to debate
that, for if you say that being unarmed is better than having a popgun,
you have no credibility at all.

Speaking of the .22 and the .22mag in particular, a round that has been
disparaged by armchair pundits here and elsewhere, I now have some hard
data with which to refute those claims.  Particularly those claims
that say the NAA mini-revolver in the .22 mag caliber is worthless.
Particularly funny are those who recommend a .25ACP or .32ACP as an
alternative.  I had meant to chrono the NAA but I've loaned my chrono
to my brother.  Someone else has now done the deed and has sent me
the numbers.  Since I had already chrono'd the .25ACP and reloading
data is available for the .32ACP, I had all the data I needed.


joeha@microsoft.com chrono'd the NAA and sent me the following:

#Sunday we did some chronographing and I tried out my .22 Mag with
#CCI Maxi Mag +V from the 1 1/8 inch barrel.  I measured from 6 feet
#away from the front sensor and got a low speed of 985 and a high speed
#of 1107 with an average 10 round speed of 1025.  This might explain why
#it did so well on your phone book.  :-)

I pulled and weighed a bullet and came up with 45 grains.  I used the
average of his numbers.  For the .32 ACP I used Lyman reloading
manual data.  For the .25ACP, I couldn't find any reloading data so I
had to go back and look at some numbers from when I chrono'd my mom's
little .25 Colt palm gun.  I had to guess at the bullet weight but I suspect
I'm not far off.

From the ever-trusty BALISTIC program:

                       .22 Mag, 45 grain bullet from NAA
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight .........  45 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.220
      Sectional Density ..... 0.133        Coefficient of Form ... 0.795
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.167        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.167
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0     1000      99.9    0.1998     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      10      989      97.7    0.1976     0.0     0.0     0.2    0.5   0.030
      20      978      95.6    0.1955     0.2     0.1     0.7    1.1   0.061
      30      968      93.6    0.1934     0.4     0.3     1.6    1.6   0.092
      40      958      91.7    0.1914     0.7     0.5     2.9    2.2   0.123
      50      948      89.9    0.1895     1.1     0.7     4.5    2.7   0.154

                   .25 ACP. chrono velocity, guessed weight
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight .........  60 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.250
      Sectional Density ..... 0.137        Coefficient of Form ... 1.247
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.110        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.110
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0      700      65.3    0.1865     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      10      691      63.6    0.1841     0.1     0.0     0.4    0.8   0.043
      20      682      62.0    0.1818     0.4     0.2     1.4    1.5   0.087
      30      674      60.5    0.1795     0.8     0.4     3.3    2.3   0.131
      40      665      58.9    0.1772     1.5     0.8     5.9    3.1   0.176
      50      657      57.5    0.1750     2.4     1.2     9.3    3.9   0.221

           .32ACP From 3" barrel.  Average velocity from Lyman manual
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight .........  71 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.308
      Sectional Density ..... 0.107        Coefficient of Form ... 0.862
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.124        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.124
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0      750      88.7    0.2364     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      10      742      86.7    0.2338     0.1     0.0     0.3    0.7   0.040
      20      733      84.7    0.2312     0.3     0.2     1.3    1.4   0.081
      30      725      82.8    0.2286     0.7     0.4     2.8    2.1   0.122
      40      717      81.0    0.2260     1.3     0.6     5.1    2.9   0.164
      50      709      79.2    0.2234     2.0     1.0     8.0    3.6   0.206

So we see that the .22 mag from the "pea shooter" delivers 34% more
energy than the .25 acp and 11% more than the .32acp from a 3" barrel!
It deliveres half the energy of the .380 and a third the power of the
9mm from a gun that can be completely concealed in the hand.  I think
giving up half the power for the ability to carry all the time is
a fair tradeoff.

John


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