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From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .30 cal carbine
Organization: Dixie Communications, The South's First Commercial Public Access Unix
MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman) writes:
#The M1 Carbine is very good at doing what it's supposed to do. It's not
#a marksman's rifle, or a sniper's weapon, or anything like that. It
#was conceived as an alternative to the sidearm for non-infantry troops.
#The cartridge has ballistics similar to the .357- i.e., a hot handgun
#round. Given the choice of reaching for my .357 or my carbine in a tight
#situtation, I'd grab the carbine with a couple of 30 round magazines.
#IMHO, of course. --mike
I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical.
In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum
load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling
the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder
with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load.
Like Mike, given the choice between a .357 and my Enforcer (.30 cal carbine
with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol
grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select.
I'd never go to the National Matches with a .30 carbine but I'd sure
use it for self-defence and close in work. And to beat all, it's a
damn fun gun to shoot. Not near the muzzle blast and about the same
recoil as .223.
John
From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .30 cal carbine
Organization: Dixie Communications, The South's First Commercial Public Access Unix
mjm@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Michael J Mallette) writes:
#In article <35568@mimsy.umd.edu> jggd@dixie.com (John G. DeArmond) writes:
#
#
##I agree. The ballistics and thhe loading parameters are almost identical.
##In fact, for the standard military 30 cal ball (130 gr?), the maximum
# 110 gr.
##load of Winchester 231 (a good pistol powder) which consists of filling
#
#Don't you mean 296? All the loading data I have show slow burning powders for
#the .30 carbine.
#
##the case to the brim, wiping it off level and compressing the powder
##with a bullet, is within a few grains of a hot .357 load.
#
#Do this with 236 in a .357 case and you WILL destroy your gun with possible
#serious injury/death to you.
No, I meant Winchester 231 exactly as I wrote it. I can't imagine why
one would want to load such a small capacity round with slow rifle
powder. Winchester 231 gives about the best bang for the buck in
my testing.
##with the barrel bobbed at the end of the forestock and with a pistol
#How much did it cost (ATF tax) having the barrel bobbed and how long did it
#take getting approval.
Iver Johnson sells the gun right off the shelf for about $160 or so.
No tax stamp required unless you want the full auto version. That's the
neat thing about the M-1 style actions. You can have a legal length
barrel in a nice one handed "pistol".
##grip) with a couple of 30 round mags, there is no doubt what I'd select.
#What are you planning on going up against? 100 bikers? Pack of wild
#dogs/wolves?
Actually, I plan on addressing any self-defense situation I'll ever get into
with my North American Arms .22 mag mini revolver (Yeah! Let's get that
argument going again.) or my Gold Cup. But if I had to pick between
a .357 mag revolver and my Enforcer, I'd take the enforcer.
John
From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .30 M1 -- Useful for hunting? Net sez NO!
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access. The Mouth of the South.
seale@pogo.den.mmc.com (Eric H Seale) writes:
#I asked the net, and the net has spoken (thanks to the dozens who
#responded in just the first day!). I asked this question because my
#(sole) table of rifle cartridge energies didn't include the .30 carbine.
#I understand that for deer hunting, you need about 1000 ft-lb (right
#units?) of energy at impact; thanks to the folks who informed me that
#the .30 doesn't even have this at the muzzle.
Unfortunately, like most myths about firearms, this is wrong. Consider
the following. I used the BALLISTIC program to look at the performance
of 3 rounds - the .357 mag, the .30 carbine and the 7.62X39 round.
I selected the .357 mag round because it is a popular deer round,
both in pistol and rifle.
For the .357 mag, I used the heaviest hollowpoint bullet and the maximum
velocity listed in the Speer manual. Ditto for the 30 carbine. For the
7.62X39, I used the 125 gr FMJ bullet loaded in imported military
ammo. Since this is by far the most common ammo in this caliber,
this is reasonable. Never having chrono'd military ammo, I used the
maximum velocity listed in the speer manual for a similar bullet.
In order to put this in perspective, I also ran the computation on
a very popular "real" deer round, the .308 NATO using a 180 gr
Speer GrandSlam and IMR4350 powder. This is about as generic
a deer round as there is.
The results:
.357 Mag with 150 gr. Hollowpoint
(Calculated using Ingalls' table)
Bullet Weight ......... 150 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.357
Sectional Density ..... 0.168 Coefficient of Form ... 1.121
Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.150 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.150
Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft.
Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time
yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec.
0 1500 749.3 0.9991 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1461 710.9 0.9731 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.4 0.020
20 1423 674.4 0.9478 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.7 0.041
30 1386 639.8 0.9232 0.2 0.4 0.7 1.1 0.062
40 1350 607.2 0.8994 0.3 0.8 1.3 1.5 0.084
50 1316 577.0 0.8767 0.6 1.2 2.1 1.9 0.107
60 1284 549.0 0.8552 0.8 1.8 3.1 2.3 0.130
70 1253 523.0 0.8347 1.1 2.4 4.3 2.7 0.154
80 1224 498.8 0.8151 1.5 3.1 5.7 3.1 0.178
90 1197 476.9 0.7970 2.0 4.0 7.4 3.6 0.203
100 1172 457.2 0.7804 2.5 4.9 9.3 4.0 0.228
.30 Carbine calc with 110 gr. bullet
(Calculated using Ingalls' table)
Bullet Weight ......... 110 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.308
Sectional Density ..... 0.166 Coefficient of Form ... 1.150
Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.144 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.144
Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft.
Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time
yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec.
0 1900 881.6 0.9280 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1849 835.1 0.9032 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.016
20 1799 790.7 0.8789 0.1 0.2 0.2 0.6 0.032
30 1751 748.5 0.8551 0.1 0.3 0.5 0.9 0.049
40 1703 708.6 0.8320 0.2 0.6 0.8 1.2 0.067
50 1657 670.8 0.8095 0.3 1.0 1.3 1.5 0.085
60 1612 635.0 0.7876 0.5 1.4 1.9 1.8 0.103
70 1569 601.1 0.7663 0.7 2.0 2.7 2.1 0.122
80 1526 569.0 0.7456 1.0 2.6 3.6 2.5 0.141
90 1485 538.6 0.7254 1.3 3.3 4.6 2.8 0.161
100 1445 509.9 0.7058 1.6 4.2 5.8 3.2 0.182
7.62X39 calc using 125 gr FMJ bullet
(Calculated using Ingalls' table)
Bullet Weight ......... 125 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.308
Sectional Density ..... 0.188 Coefficient of Form ... 0.759
Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.248 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.248
Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft.
Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time
yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec.
0 2000 1110.1 1.1101 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1969 1076.3 1.0930 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.015
20 1939 1043.3 1.0762 0.0 0.1 0.2 0.5 0.030
30 1909 1011.2 1.0595 0.1 0.2 0.4 0.8 0.046
40 1879 980.0 1.0430 0.2 0.3 0.7 1.1 0.062
50 1850 949.6 1.0267 0.3 0.5 1.1 1.4 0.078
60 1821 920.0 1.0106 0.4 0.8 1.7 1.7 0.094
70 1792 891.1 0.9946 0.6 1.0 2.3 2.0 0.111
80 1764 863.2 0.9789 0.8 1.4 3.0 2.2 0.128
90 1736 836.2 0.9634 1.0 1.8 3.9 2.6 0.145
100 1708 810.0 0.9482 1.3 2.2 4.8 2.9 0.162
.308 nato using 180 gr GrandSlam bullet and IMR 4350 powder
(Calculated using Ingalls' table)
Bullet Weight ......... 180 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.308
Sectional Density ..... 0.271 Coefficient of Form ... 0.652
Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.416 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.416
Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft.
Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time
yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec.
0 2611 2724.4 2.0869 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 2589 2678.4 2.0692 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 0.012
20 2567 2633.1 2.0516 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.4 0.023
30 2545 2588.5 2.0342 0.1 0.1 0.2 0.6 0.035
40 2523 2544.5 2.0168 0.1 0.1 0.4 0.8 0.047
50 2502 2501.1 1.9995 0.2 0.2 0.7 1.0 0.059
60 2480 2458.4 1.9824 0.2 0.3 0.9 1.2 0.071
70 2459 2416.3 1.9653 0.3 0.4 1.3 1.5 0.083
80 2438 2374.8 1.9484 0.4 0.6 1.7 1.7 0.095
90 2417 2333.9 1.9315 0.6 0.7 2.2 1.9 0.107
100 2396 2293.6 1.9148 0.7 0.9 2.7 2.1 0.120
At 50 yards, a typical hunting range for any of these rounds, we have the
following:
357 mag 1316 fps 577.0 ft-lb
30carb 1657 670.8
7.62 1850 949.6
.308 2502 2501.1
We see that the .357 mag - a known deer killer - is the weakest of the
three. The .30 carbine is about midway between the two. All of these
pale next to the .308 NATO which delivers over 2.5 times as much
energy.
I should point out too, that the 7.62X39 FMJ military round is pretty
much a zero performance round as far as hunting goes. No expansion
at all.
From the practical side, both the .30 carbine and its ammo is lighter
and easier to handle than the SKS and the muzzle blast is significantly
less. IMHO, the .30 carbine is a FUN gun. It's a ball to shoot and
is trivial to reload. Indeed, for WW231, just about the correct
amount of powder is achieved by filling the case, wiping the powder
off level with the mouth and then craming in a bullet!
My advice is pick whichever rifle tickles your fancy, secure in
the knowledge that the hunting performance is close enough to call it
even. Be aware too, of course, that either weapon is pretty puny
compared to "real" deer rounds and that you'll need to see the
whites of his eyes before you shoot.
John
From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .30 M1 -- Useful for hunting? Net sez NO!
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access. The Mouth of the South.
hes@unity.ncsu.edu (HENRY E SCHAFFER) writes:
# Perhaps the *rifle* velocities should have been used - the Gun Digest
#tables shows a .357 Mag in a rifle with a MV of 1830 fps, and 1175 ft
#lbs of energy (falling to 1427/715 at 100 yds.)
I wasn't interested in citing rifle specs. Deer hunting with .357 mag
PISTOLs is very popular around here. In our highly mountainous, very
brushy terrain, a rifle has little advantage and pistols are more fun.
My purpose in citing the PISTOL round is to illustrate that this very
popular and deady to deer caliber is much less energetic than either
of the rifle rounds being considered and all three are less energetic
than what the "experts" claim to be necessary.
##secure in
##the knowledge that the hunting performance is close enough to call it
##even.
# I think that this goes too far in recommending use of an underpowered
#caliber for deer hunting by a novice. An experienced hunter who can
#rely on short ranges, and excellent bullet placement wouldn't be asking
#questions in this way.
Who said anything about a novice? Unless demonstrated otherwise, I'll
give the original poster the benefit of the doubt and assume that if
he is making a decision between an SKS and .30 carbine for deer hunting,
he knows that both are relatively puny and require close in shooting.
I reiterate my position that the SKS and .30 carbine are close enough
to each other in energy and ballistics that other factors are the
determining ones. Factors such as gun and ammo weight. Based on owning
multiple examples of both guns, my choice would be the .30 carbine.
John
From: Gale McMillan <gale@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M-1 carbine??? Opinions???
Date: 11 May 1999 23:31:03 -0400
The catastrophic failures were common enough that a Technical Order was
written requiring us to magna flux the receivers every 400 rounds and we
condemned above 25 percent each time for cracked receivers. The only catastrophic
failure I was involved with was when a bolt blew out the side of the receiver
and struck the shooter in the temple as it spun by. Needless to say it
meant a trip to the hospital for the shooter and weeks of reports filled
by me..The ammo was GI and I don't ever remember a red boarder T.O.on any
of it. As for the lethality of the round, No pistol cartridge is considered
very lethal when firing hard ball ammo where it pokes clean holes with
little tissue damage or shock. The german that survived the 17 rounds did
so because they did no penetrate the back pack and blanket roll he was
wearing. The rifles we had in the closing days were M2s and admittedly
they got shot more in a month than civilian would shoot them in a life
time. And they had a lot of full auto as each man fired a clip at full
auto for familiarization. Clint I realize that you know more about gas
guns than I could ever hope to learn and I want you to know that the post
was not meant to hurt your sales or put down a war hero but to inform those
shooting them that there is more risk associated with them than other military
rifles. The big danger is with less knowledgeable reloaders who try to
improve its performance. And I will admit that I am prejudiced against
it due to my experience with it over the years it was in service.
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