From: bartb@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Bart Bobbit)
Subject: Re: Remington safety?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

There has been more than a few instances of Rem. 700 incidents where
they've fired as the safety was moved off.  There seems to be some
good reasons for this happening.

The Remington factory trigger is initially adjusted with quite a bit
of creep.  Which is a smart thing to do considering most users will
have the safety on with a live round in the chamber, and, when the
safety is taken off, the heavy preload of the firing pin spring is
now transferred from the safety bar to the sear.  As long as there is
plenty of sear engagement, the sear will hold the firing pin safely.

But lots of folks want crisper triggers than the factory delivers.
So, they adjust most of the creep out and get a much better trigger.
All at the expense of safety.  When they take the safety off, there
often isn't enough sear engagement to hold the firing pin back.  It
overrides the sear and slams full-force into the chambered round's
primer; BANG!

BB

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: 60 minutes story 3/20 on gun safety
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <2mjgev$i2j@news.u.washington.edu>,
David Basiji <basiji@u.washington.edu> wrote:

#The program impugned the Remington 700 series of rifles for spontaneous
#discharges when the safety is snicked off. I've never heard this allegation.
#Anyone know whether it's true, what rate of incidence there is of this defect,
#and the root cause of it?

A broken trigger will do this on a Rem 700, and releasing the safety will
release the cocking piece and fire the rifle.  This happened to one of my
hunting partners on a prairie dog safari a few years ago. His trigger
broke on the first day, but he found he could still hit PDs using the
safety as a trigger!  I tried it a few times for grins but I cannot
recommend it :) It was pretty funny to watch, and when we got home he took
it to a gunsmith and asked him to adjust the safety to 2 pounds, and take
out the creep :) The Rem 700 safety works on the trigger, not the cocking
piece/firing pin.  Not good if the trigger breaks.

Toby Bradshaw -- Biochemistry SJ-70 -- toby@u.washington.edu

Banning guns to prevent murder is like banning short skirts to prevent rape.

From: toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Subject: Re: Model 700 fired by it
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <344oj3$ntv@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Ben Sansing <ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us> wrote:
#
# toby@u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) insists...
#
#TB>In article <33u262$18u@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
#TB>Ben Sansing <ben.sansing@chaos.lrk.ar.us> wrote:
#
#TB>#In such a case, it is at least fortunate
#TB>#that Remington's fine safety engages the striker itself - otherwise, the
#TB>#rifle might go off at ANY time, regardless of the safety position.

For pity's sake, get the attributions right.  YOU said this, not me.

#TB>Rem 700 "safeties" block only the sear.  Safeties are just a crutch,
#TB>and in the case of Remington the crutch is already broken.  I like
#TB>Rems and their variants, but the safety is a bad joke.
#
#Brethren, I take as my text for today, BOLT ACTION RIFLES, by Frank
#DeHaas, Chapter 30, "Remington Models 721, 722, 725, 700, 600, & 660",
#pp249-255 (quoting excerpts from p251):

#"The safety, a bent steel stamping positioned largely on the right side
#of the trigger housing, pivots on a pin through the housing. It has a
#serrated button projecting upward along the right side of the receiver
#tang, conveniently sited for thumb operation. The front of the safety
#extends alongside the trigger housing; when the safety is pulled back
#the front of the safety moves up to engage a notch in the rear of the
#bolt body to lock the bolt.

No part of the safety itself touches the striker or the bolt.  The
upper part of the sear, which DeHaas is calling part of the "safety",
can operate completely independently of the safety (as a matter
of fact, I always take the safety off before sending the trigger
to Neil Jones, as he takes them off and doesn't send them back on
adjustments under 1#).  A cam on the safety switch holds the upper
sear in place.  That's it.  If the sear is in one piece, everything
is ducky.  Otherwise ...

#The safety cam, another strip of metal
#similar to the sear, lies to the left of the sear and pivots on the sear
#pin.

Take a look at a Rem trigger, as I'm doing right now.  The safety
touches NOTHING but the sear.  If the safety is working right
the striker is held back WITH THE SEAR, not with any
projection of the safety itself.  Take a look at a Win 70 safety
if you want to see one where the safety itself does the holding.
If sears never broke a safety that relies exclusively on the sear
might make sense.

#"A short arm, doubled back on the rear of the safety, reaches into the
#trigger housing under the safety cam. When the safety button is pulled
#back (which can be done only when the action is cocked) this arm cams
#the safety cam up, forcing the firing pin back so that it is off of the
#sear. Thus, with the safety pulled back to SAFE position, the firing pin
#and bolt are locked. A small bearing lies in a hole in the side of the
#safety; a flat spring fastened on the safety pin tensions the ball to
#hold the safety in either the SAFE (back) or FIRE (forward) position."

#To re-emphasize: "...the firing pin and bolt are locked..."
#Toby is in error in saying that the safety "only affects the sear". The
#Remington 700-series safety is far from a "bad joke"...

Toby is not in error, and neither is DeHaas.  As long as the sear
is in one piece and the bolt is in the rifle and the trigger pins
haven't worked loose (gee, could that happen?) the safety-moving-
the-sear works fine.  Of course, if the damn sears were bulletproof
we wouldn't have half the trigger problems with Rems that we do.

#It is also easy enough to see, from the above description, how a trigger
#&/or sear engagement set too "light" (or otherwise defective) could "go
#off" when the safety was disengaged. So long as the safety is ON, the
#firing pin is *NOT* going anywhere...

You must be joking.  You think that if the "serrated button" is
pulled back you're as safe as in church?  Wow.  Either your experience
or imagination need some enhancement :)  Picture those trigger
pins working loose, especially the one in the back, and take
a look at your Rem 700 trigger with the "safety" pulled back ...

#but a slight jar, or something
#similar, could result in the safety being the *only* thing holding the
#firing pin/striker at bay... such a rifle would, of course, be extremely
#dangerous... such a rifle could be loaded and then "bumped" (with the
#safety never touched) and go off... the problem lies not with the
#safety, but with the trigger/sear relationship.

I thought you said that as long as the "safety" is engaged
nothing bad can happen, regardless, because the bolt is "locked".

-Toby Bradshaw
toby@u.washington.edu