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From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Combination Sillouette/Pig Handgun
Keywords: Thompson
Date: 26 Sep 89 21:45:04 GMT

In article <33778@ism780c.isc.com> szirin@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (seth.zirin) writes:

>Wounded pigs can be pretty nasty.  I'd worry about not having a second
>shot with the T/C.  Even with .35 Rem.  What about a Ruger Blackhawk
>or S&W M29?  Or something in 45 ACP? (Is 45 ACP too slow for Sillouette?).

You'd be mortaring a .45 at the rams.  We recently experimented with a
10mm auto at the sillouette range.  About 3 out of 5 times, a solid hit
on a pig would leave it standing.  IT would be hopeless on the turkeys
and rams.  Most "high power" pistol rounds just don't have much to offer
at 200 meters.  For street combat or protection, they're fine but it
takes big bore rifle-level power to reliably knock down the rams.  My
shooting partner left a ram standing last weekend with a dead center
shot out of a 30-30 TC!  Not fun.

>If you're set on the T/C, maybe you should carry something to keep on tap
>as a backup.

AMEN.  My brother, who is a big-time hog hunter carries both a .357 python
and a sawed off shotgun loaded with slugs.  He's the type of guy who
jumps the hogs and stabs them to death with a knife.  So I take his
choice of backup weapons seriously.

John



From: John De Armond
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Combination Sillouette/Pig Handgun
Date: 26 Sep 89 21:49:20 GMT

In article <33585@ism780c.isc.com> mikek@aeras (Mike Kane ) writes:
>Right now I'm leaning towards the Thompson/Contender with a .35 Remington
>for pigs, and a .44 Magnum for Sillouette; both with the 14 inch barrell.
>The ability to buy extra calibers/barrells is most attractive. Comments?

In my opinion, you are underpowered for both.  I KNOW that the 44 mag
is not competative in Sillouette.  There are a few guys that shoot
44's but most have gone to the 357 maximum in revolvers or a number
of varieties of rifle cartridges in bolt/production guns.  If you
want to shoot production class, you'll have to choose one of the
approved rounds.  I know many people shooting 30-30 in TC guns.
Also popular is the 7 mm imsha round.

If you want to shoot unlimited, the TC is really not too competative
anymore.  Most winners are shooting bolt guns like the XP-100 or
like mine, a Shilin-action based custom.

here, the 7-br round is popular as is the imsha 7mm.  I shoot a .308 nato
round with a 148gr fmjbt bullet out of a 14" barreled Shilin.  This
round has a bit more recoil than some people like but it REALLY makes
the rams an offer they can't refuse.  Even with foot shots.

Any of these high power sillouette rounds with soft nose bullets will
be fine for hogs.  I'd optimize which ever activity I shoot most.
In my case, it is competition.  IN any event, I'd not fool around with
2 different rounds.  This just doubles the amount of experimenting
you must do and increases your reloading costs.

John



From: rsiatl!jgd@stiatl.UUCP (John G. De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hearing Protection
Keywords: hearing
Date: 25 Oct 89 23:47:18 GMT

In article <35468@ism780c.isc.com> avf@cheetah.megatek.uucp (Andy Funk) writes:
>Question for the Net: What is the LOUDEST gun you have ever fired?

A tie between my 3" black powder cannon and my Shilin .308 Silhouette
pistol firing rounds loaded with about 45 grains of IMR-4350. (NOT a good
load for pistol work but great for an M-14)  Spectators say that the ball
of fire is several feet in diameter.  The blast is strong enough that
it blows up dirt in front of the firing benches and shakes pigeon do-do
from the roof tin.  I do know that in spite of shooting glasses
with side guards, the blast brings tears to my eyes.  People on
the tables next to my position pack up and leave :-)  This is a seriously
loud load.

My cannon was built by me specifically to make noise and secondarily
to blast golf balls long distances.  I machined the barrel with a
small step in the end so that when wet sand is packed in for tamp, it
traps the sand for a second, generating more pressure.  I fill the barrel
about half full ffff powder and the rest is filled with wet sand.  Takes
about half a pound of powder.  The sound is awsom.  I've had the
opportunity to witness tank cannon fire and this little one is comparable.
I really have fun on the 4th of July and New Years :-)

John



From: rsiatl!jgd@mathcs.emory.edu (John G. De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long-range pistols
Keywords: handgun, long range
Date: 3 Aug 90 17:43:11 GMT

In article <7877@orca.wv.tek.com> cscc1f@jetson.uh.edu (Greg Hayes) writes:
>       What kind of weapons are used for these shoots? Later, in the article,
>       you say that he used a production handgun...is it magnaported? Any
>       other mods? I'm figuring at these extreme ranges, that these weapons
>       are chambered in magnum loads. Ten inch barrel...hmm...then these
>       weapons are hunting handguns to start with. When I read the laser
>       article, I was meaning by handguns autos and revolvers with 5 in
>       barrels or less. I've shot T/Cs chambered in .35 Rem and had no
>       problem hitting at 100 yards. I've also used my Ruger Blackhawk,
>       chambered in .41 mag w/ a 6.5 in barrel to hunt deer up to 50
>       yards.

In IHSMSA Unlimited class, I use a custom-built bolt action pistol with
a 14" barrel, 3 oz trigger and chambered for .308 Nato.  I use a 150 gr
FMJBT bullet on top of 45 grains of H-4895.  This is a medium-hot load
that knocks down rams at 200 meters with authority.  No Magna-porting
or other recoil reducing means used - not necessary.

For production class, I use a Thompson/contender chambered for 30-30.
I use a 165 grain FMJ bullet on top of 17.5 grains of Dupont 4759.
This is a heavy load that cause some case stretching but is necessary
for reliable Ram knockdown.

Both pistols are very enjoyable to shoot.  I enjoy shooting either more
than I do my IPSC Colt .45.  The recoil, while more than with a .45, is
more manageable and much less annoying.


John



From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: T/C Contender Barrels
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access

nosun!pdx.csd.mot.com!brian@cs.UMD.EDU (Brian Vandewettering) writes:

#I've decided to purchase a .223 Rem barrel for my T/C Contender.  Does
#anyone have experience with the SSK barrels.  The standard barrel from
#T/C seems to give about 1 3/8" groups at 100 yards in the tests I've
#seen.  Will the SSK cut that group in half?  Is magnaporting or a muzzle
#brake needed on this caliber in a handgun?

You won't need magnaporting on a T/C with that puny round :-)  .30-30
has much more recoil and a .308 (NOT recommended by T/C) gets your
attention.  You'll barely feel the .223.

Regarding barrels, IHMO, you can't improve on T/C barrels.  As I've
posted here before, I've witnessed repeatable <1/2" groups from a
10" .30-30 at 100 yards.  I can't shoot that tight but the gun can.
I also witnessed a couple of grains of powder throwing the group
size all to hell.

What we've found for .30-30 for silhouette shooting (which may or may
not hold for .223) is that the heavier bullets stabilize the best.
After finding a good bullet, one MUST work up a load for the particular
gun.  Factory rifle ammo in a pistol is not optimum.   For the .30-30
I've become quite fond of IMR SR-4759 powder.  It is a very light,
bulky powder that yields very good accuracy with low recoil.

John


From: John De Armond
Subject: Re: .45acp for silhouette
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

blatt@pss.fit.edu writes:

#Does anyone have advice on loads/bullets for .45ACP for use in the NRA
#hunters pistol (10" SSK barrel, open sights, 40m to 100m)?


Yeah, don't, if you can help it.  The ACP is a great manstopper but
it sucks as a long range round.  Consider:

First, a factory load.

                      Federal 45A 45 Automatic (Match) MC
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight ......... 230 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.451
      Sectional Density ..... 0.162        Coefficient of Form ... 1.056
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.153        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.153
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0      850     368.9    0.8681     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      27      828     349.8    0.8452     0.5     0.2     1.8    1.7   0.098
      55      806     332.0    0.8235     1.9     0.9     7.5    3.5   0.198
      82      786     315.6    0.8029     4.4     2.1    17.1    5.3   0.301
     109      767     300.2    0.7831     8.0     3.7    30.9    7.2   0.407


The killer is almost a yard of drop at the ram line and almost half a
second flight time which gives the wind a LOT of time to kick up.

Now let's consider a hypothetical load, a very hot one that is perhaps
not even possible.  For sure not possible in a weapon with a loading
ramp relief on the breech.


                      Federal 45A 45 Automatic (Match) MC
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight ......... 230 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.451
      Sectional Density ..... 0.162        Coefficient of Form ... 1.056
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.153        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.153
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0     1200     735.3    1.2255     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      27     1137     660.0    1.1610     0.2     0.3     0.9    1.2   0.070
      55     1085     601.3    1.1083     1.0     1.3     3.9    2.5   0.144
      82     1042     554.2    1.0640     2.4     2.9     9.0    3.9   0.221
     109     1005     515.3    1.0260     4.4     5.0    16.6    5.3   0.302


You're still dealing with a foot and a half of drop.  This means you're going
to be changing your sight setting at least for the turkeys and rams.

Now let's take a look at a factory load .44 mag from a 4" barrel:


                         Federal 44C 44 Rem Magnum MCP
                       (Calculated using Ingalls' table)
      Bullet Weight ......... 220 grains   Bullet Caliber ........ 0.429
      Sectional Density ..... 0.171        Coefficient of Form ... 0.885
      Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.193        Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.193
      Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h.  Altitude .............. 0    Ft.
      Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in.    Temperature ........... 60.0 F

    Range  Velocity  Energy   Momentum  Mx. Ord. Defl.   Drop   Lead   Time
    yards   f.p.s.   ft-lb.   lb.-sec.    in.     in.     in.  in/mph  sec.
       0     1430     998.8    1.3969     0.0     0.0     0.0    0.0   0.000
      27     1352     893.3    1.3211     0.2     0.3     0.7    1.0   0.059
      55     1282     802.6    1.2523     0.7     1.2     2.7    2.1   0.121
      82     1218     725.2    1.1903     1.7     2.6     6.4    3.3   0.187
     109     1164     662.1    1.1374     3.2     4.7    11.8    4.5   0.256


Now the drop is under a foot and the time of flight is at a quarter of
a second.  Not bad.  You could get away with maybe one sight adjustment
for the rams or maybe not if you can hold up just a little on the
ram line.  Juice this up a little with a custom load and you for sure
can get away without any sight changes.

I've tried shooting at a regular handgun silhouette range with my IPSC
gun just on a lark.  It reminded me of mortar fire :-)  I did finally find
a spot on the dirt bank above the pigs that I could sight on and hit
fairly reliably.  I had time to lower the gun and see the bullet hit.
If there is ANY cross-wind at all, forget it.

If you have to shoot .45ACP, load 'er up hot, get a high rear sight and
fire away.  But if you have a choice, get something hotter.

John



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