From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.cardiology,alt.activism,talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: U. S. Trails the world in herbal medicines
Date: 14 Apr 1999 07:31:21 GMT

In <37133A29.B2813A4D@cs.uoregon.edu> Bret Wood
<bretwood@cs.uoregon.edu> writes:

>"Steven B. Harris" wrote:
>>
>> In <37130A8B.A88BF58C@cs.uoregon.edu> Bret Wood
>> <bretwood@cs.uoregon.edu> writes:
>>
>> >All I commented on was your claim that the two products _obviously_
>> >have the same side effect profiles. It is NOT obvious. I clearly
>> >stated that I thought most herbal stuff is crap, and that I know
>> >NOTHING about this herb or medicine in particular. All I was saying is
>> >that your claim was NOT obvious. Your claim is extremely likely. It is
>> >almost certain. But to a scientist (you did claim that doctors are
>> >scientists didn't you?) it is not obvious, because there are
>> >significant uncontrolled variables in the comparison.
>>
>>    There are always uncontrolled variables.
>
>You dropped a word.  I said _significant_ uncontrolled variables.


    There are always uncontrolled variables which you cannot be
absolutely sure are not significant.  I cannot be absolutely sure about
those Martians.

>Indeed, I used the term complex to discuss cyanocobalamin in comparison
>to other compounds which are not complexes.  (My graduate research
>was entirely based on the study of a specific type of coordination
>compounds.  And the term coordination compound, and coordination
>complex tend to be treated as equivalent terms, which has apparently
>led to some bad habits....)
>
>Anyway I was under the impression that cyanide is much more toxic
>than you stated in the discussion on the subject a few months ago.
>That's why I was curious about it.  But now it seems that HCN gas
>shouldn't be as feared as it is.  As long as you know that it
>smells like roasted almonds, it seems you should be able to leave
>the room before you inhale a lethal dose.  I guess all the murder
>mystery authors need to rethink some of their plots.  :)

    It all depends on how much the concentration goes up before the
person walks into it and takes a breath.  The fatal dose of cyanide is
100 mg, remember?  That's roughly 120 mL of HCN gas.  Roughly a fifth
of a normal breath-- not even a deep breath.

   Which is why warden Duffy always told his convicts to hold their
breaths in the California gas chamber until the HCN concentrations got
high.  At that point one breath delivers enough cyanide to knock you
out in a few seconds.  It's much the same with H2S.  One breath and
you're dead.  You just have to hope you get a nice concentration
gradient to warn you beforehand.   And it's not *obvious* that you
always will.

                                        Steve Harris

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.med.cardiology,alt.activism,talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: U. S. Trails the world in herbal medicines
Date: 15 Apr 1999 03:06:06 GMT

In <37145BBC.FD8F9C65@cs.uoregon.edu> Bret Wood
<bretwood@cs.uoregon.edu> writes:

>"Steven B. Harris" wrote:
>>
>>     It all depends on how much the concentration goes up before the
>> person walks into it and takes a breath.  The fatal dose of cyanide is
>> 100 mg, remember?  That's roughly 120 mL of HCN gas.  Roughly a fifth
>> of a normal breath-- not even a deep breath.
>
>Yeah, but all gasses are toxic at 100% concentration.  :)
>
>I was under the impression that just a trace of HCN in the air could
>be very dangerous.


   It can.  You get 1 breath at 20%, about 10 breaths at 2% (we're
neglecting dead space, but what's 20 or 30% error among friends? when
we're talking about 30 seconds?), 100 breaths (5 minutes or so) at 0.2%
(2000 ppm), 50 minutes to death at 200 ppm, etc.