From: ((Steven B. Harris))
Subject: Re: Prozac: Panacea or Pandora
Date: 05 May 1995
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative

In <3oav8m$7k1@news.iadfw.net> barbara@iadfw.net (Barbara Blanton)
writes:

>I support Steve!  Sex craving is not a side effect of Prozac I have
>EVER heard of.  I have lots of patients on Prozac....lack of libido is
>the only sex related side effect I's familiar with.
>  Barbara Blanton MSN, RN
>
>
>>Patients report cravings for sex on Prozac??? This statement alone
>>convinces me that you guys must be talking a different drug than the one
>>I've been prescribing. Not much else of what you say fits either the
>>literature or my own observations either.
>>
>>Are you guys connected to Scientology, by the way? Scientologists hate
>>Prozac. I think mainly because it provides backbone for people to get
>>out of abuse relationships. Such as the ones they are in with
>>Scientology <g>.
>>
>>                                  Steve Harris, M.D.


   Comment:  If ever there was a drug for Trappist monks, it would be
Prozac: it removes quite a few animal urges.  Except for the fact that
after a couple of months on Prozac, many monks would probably get up
the gumption to tell the abbott to go to the devil, and leave to take up
their own lives and self-directed goals and ambitions again.  Prozac is
a bad drug for hierarchical organizations and cults, because Prozac
using peons eventually start to wonder why they are being peed-on.
Since there usually isn't any good reason other than the fact that
they've submitted to it, and found somebody who will do it, this is
generally embarrassing for all.

                                        Steve Harris, M.D.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,sci.med,sci.pharmacy
Subject: Re: OCD: Alternatives to Luvox?
Date: 6 Jul 1998 02:20:34 GMT

In <6np8aa$tqp$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> dbuskirk@surfsouth.com writes:

>My 8 year old daughter was recently diagnosed as having OCD (obsessive
>compulsive disorder), and Luvox was prescribed. The medication works
>pretty well, but without a prescription card, it costs $160+ per month. I
>can't afford this.
>
>I'm looking for alternatives...desperately.


Comment:

   It would be a lot cheaper to buy 20 mg Prozac capsules (a drug which
works well for OCD), disolve them in water, and administer them in
something that hides the taste (V8 juice works).  Give her 5 mg a
day or so.  Say, one 20 mg capsule in 8 oz of water (it disolves well),
kept in your refrigerature.  Every day you take out 2 oz, mix with half
a 6 oz can of V8, and down it goes.  The 20 mg caps give you the most
for the money.  Stay away from Prozac elixer, since it's horribly
expensive, and the molecule is stable (make up your own for a couple of
days per capsule).  Cost of this is about $15 a month, one tenth of
what you're spending.  Sound better?

   Naturally, clear with your doctor first.  But you can always fire
doctors you don't like.  Remember that, too.

                                   Steve Harris, M.D.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,sci.med
Subject: Re: Post-hysterectomy Sex Abstracts
Date: 17 Mar 1999 07:51:41 GMT

In <Ftxy5kAIAv72EwLf@lotos-land.demon.co.uk> J Prescott
<Joanna@lotos-land.demon.co.uk> writes:

>>       Not far from the truth, Joanna. Our here in California, there are
>>articles about pet massages and Prozac for one's pooch.
>
>This is something we have in common. We have pet cemeteries and pet
>psychologists. Animal charities receive _far_ more in bequests than
>any of the human ones.

   For that matter, if you've ever visited a pet cemetary, you'll see
it decorated with fresh flowers like it was Memorial Day.  ANY day.

> And of course, there are the fashionable outfits,
>jewellry, heated beds, pharmacopeia both traditional and alternative.
>Actually, it's no wonder the poor pooches [we have that too] do need
>Prozac!

   Prozac is actually useful for animals with obscessive compulsive
behaviors.  Like dogs that lick their paws to the bone and birds that
pull all their feathers out.  That's the chemical that some nature
lovers in 1990 were saying was the worst invention ever made by
science.  That's right up until they have a pet who's going to die
horribly unless something is done about some behavior that only an SSRI
drug will cure.

    The real damage animal lovers do in this country, however, has
nothing to do with what they spend on pooch sweaters.  That's just a
hobby.  The damage they do is in blocking medical research which would
otherwise save humans lives.  The dumb sons of guns don't even realize
that the same research will eventually save pet lives.  It can't fail,
because trickle-down works in vetrinary medicine, too.  I hear that at
UC Davis they're doing kidney transplants on pet cats.  If you've got
the bucks, they've got the cyclosporin.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med
Subject: Re: Medical denial is it really a problem?
Date: 9 May 1999 09:28:44 GMT

In <3734E408.673236E8@cs.uoregon.edu> Bret Wood
<bretwood@cs.uoregon.edu> writes:

>In my opinion, the "real" mental illnesses are not those defined in
>the DSM, they are those mental illnesses which have been shown
>through experimentation to actually exist.  Either because the
>disease leaves clear evidence of its existence (such as Alzheimer's
>and schizophrenia), or because it can be treated.  (such as OCD,
>mood disorders, panic attacks, etc.)
>
>Diagnoses which DON'T meet these criteria, and which go against the
>direct statements of the patient are very suspect.


   I agree they are more suspect, but am still wary of waiting for a
drug in order to consider a disease "real."  We now believe in the
chemical existance of what used to be called "anxiety neuroses" and
"hysteria" because of the existence of benzodiazepines, results from
PET scans, etc.  But if these drugs and scanning techniques had never
been invented, who would have believed that "anxiety" is a fundamental
trait, mediated by a very specific set of receptors, localized to a
specific part of the brain (amygdala)?  On the face of it, it seems
about as likely as the case for "religiosity" being the same way.  If
we come out with a pill which turns the true believer into the skeptic,
what will we call it?  And what will we do about it?

   Whatsisname, in _Talking to Prozac_ makes the point that we used to
thing of temperment as a fundamental quality of a person--- until we
started to find ways of changing it.  Hmmm, well, I guess it's not in
your soul after all.  People who join cults turn out to be
low-serotonin types who simply get mauled into being robots in a baboon
heirarchy, where only the leaders have good serotonin levels (as with
baboons).  Give these cult followers SSRI inhibitors (aka Backbone in a
Bottle), and they tell their Fearless Leaders what they can do with
their tennis shoes and rolls of quarters.  For that matter, this
happens in baboon troops also.  Cults that suck people's money really
hate Prozac. Scientology thinks it's the worst thing that has ever
happened.  And well they should.  It's certainly a nightmare for THEM.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: salt peter?
Date: 28 May 1999 07:16:08 GMT

In <19990527142410.13123.00001803@ng64.aol.com> tallstark@aol.com
(Tallstark) writes:

>Dear all,
>
>I have a question regarding potassium nitrate, or salt peter. I have been
>told that the army puts it in the food in boot camp to keep mens libidos
>in check. Is there any truth to this,

   No, it is an urban myth.

>and how does it work? Does anybody know what doses are useful if you are
>trying to decrease libido or win a Seinfeld type bet? (hint hint)


    There's little to do to decrease libido in the way of herbs and
vitamins.  The SSRI antidepressant drugs, however, are often quite
effective.  Prozac can make monks out of many men, at least for awhile.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: misc.kids.health,sci.med
Subject: Re: Hepatitis B vaccine damage
Date: 5 Jul 1999 09:36:36 GMT

>Edward Mathes wrote:
>
>> Radha wrote:
>
>> > I think you'd have a little trouble getting a world-wide prescription
>> > for prosac. You would have to secretly slip it in the water without
>> > telling anyone (not hard). What about the side effects? What about
>> > breastfeeding mothers? What about prosac combined with other
>> > medication?
>
>> See my other pst.  It is a JOKE, a little bit of clinical humor:
>> "Depression is so widespread we should put prozac in the water!".



   Of course, the worst part of the joke is that it's already partly
true.  Prozac IS in the water, any time the water contains any
groundwater which has been through a sewage system.  The trifluromethyl
(-CF3) group in the stuff makes it rather tough and difficult to
degrade, and along with ciprofloxicin it makes up a major part of
organic fluorides in some water systems.  No, neither is at a medicinal
dose, though you can be glad that homeopathy isn't a correct theory, or
everbody really would be depressed.  The good news is that there's no
evidence that a trace of Prozac nulifies the effect of your
antidepressant.  Though, alas, I suspect that Cipro pollution really
does screw up our chances of being helped by the entire class of
fluroquinolone antibiotics.  Perhaps not as badly as the Levoquin drug
rep and all those samples, does.  But almost.

From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.pharmacy,sci.med
Subject: Re: Prozac taken with Alchohol
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:02:33 -0800
Message-ID: <a839q9$sra$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>

Carey Gregory wrote in message
<2m4aaugths4cekb9ft21331s1vjt5sco0f@4ax.com>...
>"Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Prozac is not a CNS depressant.
>
>Okay, my mistake.  I thought it was.
>
>But knowing you, I can't believe you're going to leave it at that.
>C'mon, do tell....


Well, it just isn't.  Take a couple and see-- you don't feel a thing.

I've tried to sample as many different meds as I can, as an internist--
blood pressure pills, cholesterol pills, diuretics, antibiotics, etc, etc.
Some of them have the damned side effects.  Often I get effects I don't read
about in the PDR.  I realize that I'm a unique individual, but doing this
still gives a real gut appreciation for the things we ask patients to do.

SBH
--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my address. It's open
book.  A prize to the first spambot that passes my Turing test.

From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.pharmacy,sci.med
Subject: Re: Prozac taken with Alchohol
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 13:10:10 -0800
Message-ID: <a859qp$ibt$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>

Carey Gregory wrote in message
<3onbauo92fs9t56iopv91sptm9rme1jga5@4ax.com>...
>"Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, it just isn't.  Take a couple and see-- you don't feel a thing.
>
>Well, heck, what good is it then?  ;-)


You start feeling better immediately, knowing your depression is being
treated, and won't last forever. No kidding. This happens even if you know
that's all it is. However, the drug itself (as shown by comparison with
placebo) doesn't start acting pharmacologically for at least a couple of
weeks. Then the effect is so gradual that the patient him/her self often
doesn't notice at first (family does, tho).


>
>>I've tried to sample as many different meds as I can, as an internist--
>>blood pressure pills, cholesterol pills, diuretics, antibiotics, etc, etc.
>
>Watch out you don't end up like my old psychopharm professor.  He did
>the same thing and ended up a bit of a quivering mess.  Of course, he
>had a rather unusual collection of substances to sample....


I'll bet.  No, I've tried them only one at a time, and just to see what they
do.  I've gotten a wild spectrum of things from rashes to headaches to GI
problems to dizziness to cold intolerance and a taste in the mouth like
metal.  Not all at once, and not with the same drug. A few drugs have no
side effects at all that I can detect. But all that stuff in the PDR can
happen, all right. I tell my patients to be on lookout for ANYTHING, but I
only prewarn them about the dangerous stuff. The rest I wait for them to
discover, then give them the full list after some weeks to see if they
recognize anything. That seems to be the optimal strategy.

--
I welcome email from any being clever enough to fix my address. It's open
book.  A prize to the first spambot that passes my Turing test.

From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.pharmacy,sci.med
Subject: Re: Prozac taken with Alchohol
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:21:00 -0700
Message-ID: <a86a9d$pus$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>

"Bob Wallace" <bobw@promind.com> wrote in message
news:3ca67769.108846583@news.sonic.net...
> "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >You start feeling better immediately, knowing your depression is being
> >treated, and won't last forever. No kidding. This happens even if you know
> >that's all it is. However, the drug itself (as shown by comparison with
> >placebo) doesn't start acting pharmacologically for at least a couple of
> >weeks...
>
> My understanding is the SSRI activity starts right away, but this effect
> triggers a secondary effect, probably some kind of serotonin receptor
> (or perhaps transporter) population changes, which finally eases the
> depression.


COMMENT:

Yes, when I said "doesn't work pharmacologically," I of course meant it
doesn't work on the depression pharamacologically.  It starts to do
*something* immediately, but nobody's really sure what. The whole theory of
these things is (as you will notice) rather screwy.  Serotonin uptake is
blocked so serotonin levels go up, right? Serotonin levels have immediate
effects on depression when they are manipulated (giving or depleting
tryptophan, etc).  So the SSRI, which increases serotonin in the synapse
immediately, should immediately ease depression.  But it doesn't. Tilt.
That means there's something wrong with the simple-dumb theory.  Yes, no
doubt some receptor is being modulated somehow, somewhere. There's even a
competing theory that depression is eased by having effective serotonin
levels DROP...! I don't believe it, but you see what desperation there is to
explain the data.

Big mess. However, enough double blind controlled studies have been done to
show the things DO work, whatever the ultimate mechanism (which surely
involves serotonin) turns out to be.

SBH

From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.pharmacy,sci.med
Subject: Re: Prozac taken with Alchohol
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:01:19 -0600
Message-ID: <a9a9t2$drf$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>

"chimera" <chimera@chimericy.com> wrote in message
news:q3Wt8.144610$Aq5.1971709@news.webusenet.com...
> In article <GuHp09.Gr3@world.std.com>,
>  blair[no spam]@world.std.com (Blair P. Houghton) wrote:
>
> > Including a monster
> > hot-flash that kicked off a panic-attack adrenaline hit that
> > knocked up my heart rate so high and hard
>
> boy, that's exactly what happened to me when I was put on Paxil, except
> that I didn't call 911, and I tried to stick it out a little longer than
> you (foolishly). That was one of the most miserable and frightening
> experiences of my life.


Paxil should be started VERY slowly, as stories like this are common. I have
the feeling that the immediate serotonin-blocking activity of the drug makes
anxiety worse for the first week or two people are on it, until their
receptors adjust (you don't see this as much with Prozac because levels come
up so slowly in comparison). During that time, however, there's nothing to
do but beat the extra anxiety back down with extra benzodiazepines. When you
get THROUGH that phase, however, then stuff starts to work the OTHER way,
and can be extremely valuable.

You can see the multifaceted face of anxiety, however, by the wild and
strange array of symptoms that people get on this stuff, early on. The more
anxious they are, the worse spectrum you see.  A couple of Xanax and it all
goes away, however.  That's how we know it's a secondary manifestation of an
underlying simple problem.  It's a drug side effect all right, but not a
direct one.

SBH

From: "Steve Harris" <sbharris@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.med.pharmacy,sci.med
Subject: Re: Prozac taken with Alchohol
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:14:21 -0600
Message-ID: <a9aalg$g7r$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>

<blair[no spam]@world.std.com (Blair P. Houghton)> wrote in message
news:GuHp09.Gr3@world.std.com...
> Today (Friday) was my second pill, and I think I had every
> one of the *withdrawal* symptoms but two.  Including a monster
> hot-flash that kicked off a panic-attack adrenaline hit that
> knocked up my heart rate so high and hard that I felt a bruising
> pain welling under my left pec and called 911.  I was stable
> by the time the paramedics got there, but not real pleased
> with my sparkling new meds.


When people get anxious enough, they call 911 when the morning paper doesn't
come.



>
> I'm also getting something I haven't seen in any of the
> side-effect lists (both at the manufacturer's site and
> the site of the lawyers who are or did sue them for failing
> to declare that the stuff can make you homocidal and suicidal.)
>
> I get a lockjaw, about every hour, for a few seconds.  But
> during the withdrawal from the peak of today's dose I had
> several lasted for a minute or more, and were accompanied
> by a similar sort of tonic immobility feeling in my lower
> bowels.
>
> Which makes me think it *is* one of the symptoms they
> listed: Seizure.  Just a very low-grade seizure.
>


I don't think so.


> I'm not taking any more of these.  I've got some Xanax
> left and I'm going to apply those as needed until the
> doctor is in.

Good idea.



>
> For me, at least, the Paxil cure is far worse than the
> disease (I had a couple of panic attacks 8 months apart,
> and mistook both for actual cardiac events, which is most
> of the reason they turned from adrenaline tweaks into panic
> attacks).  I'd be better off with no medicine and some
> professional training in recognizing the feeling of a heart
> attack.

You're better off trying Prozac and starting at 5mg a day. Nobody really
believes Paxil does anything Prozac doesn't. It's just that the makers of
it have boosted it for other indications which all SSRIs treat, and gotten
the official indication nod for doing so.

SBH