From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: raw eggs
Date: 13 Nov 1998 02:56:35 GMT

In <364b65b9.128304@news.clinet.fi> mnng@iname.com (Matti Narkia)
writes:
>
>12 Nov 1998 06:09:04 GMT in article
<72du20$skl@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>
>sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris) wrote:
>
>>In <19981111154652.12417.00000147@ng-fa2.aol.com> rushings3@aol.com
>>(Rushings3) writes:
>>
>>>Are raw eggs bad for you?
>>
>>
>>Risks are salmonella and biotin deficiency (from binding of biotin by
>>the avidin in raw eggs, which is denatured (destroyed in activity) by
>>cooking).  You can make sure you don't get biotin deficiency by taking a
>>biotin supplement at a different time in the day.  As for the
>>salmonella, which is present often even inside the egg shell, you just
>>have to take your chances.
>
>Isn't avidin present only in the egg white? If so, biotin deficiency can
>be avoided eating only raw egg yolks.


  Yeah, but what's the point of eating eggs if you're only going to eat
the yolks?


>As for salmonella, the situation varies quite a bit from country to
>country. In Finland for example the risk of getting salmonella from raw
>egg yolks is practically nonexistent.

   And I suppose in Finland your feces don't stink, either.  Give me a
break.  Salmonella is a natural chicken gut organism.  Even in that
perfect Utopian country of Finland.


>I've been eating
>2 -3  raw egg yolks daily for over four years now without even a hint
>of salmonella.


   Means nothing except that your stomach acid and immune system are
competent.  I used to drink raw-egg eggnogs frequently without problem
also.  It's the people with compromized immune systems, or achlorhydria
(often the elderly), who are at greatest risk.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: raw eggs
Date: 14 Nov 1998 18:57:57 GMT

In <364bf200.784054@news.clinet.fi> mnng@iname.com (Matti Narkia)
writes:

>Yeah, but there are differences in quality control. Food regulations and
>controls are fairly strict in Finland.


As they are in the US.  If you have some evidence that Finnish eggs are
less likely to contain salmonella than US eggs, you're welcome to
produce it.  FYI, the organism of interest is found INSIDE the shell
(where it is deposited as the developing egg moves down the
reproductive tract, which isn't sterile), and where all the quality
control and washing and so forth after the egg is laid, does not a bit
of good anyway in removing it.  Perhaps in Finland they've developed
germ free chickens which don't lay eggs with Salmonella inside the
shell.  Or perhaps there is a special super Finish X-ray microscope
which sees through egg shells to detect a few lurking bacteria and
throw the offending eggs away before the ultrafastidious Finns, so much
more hygeinic than the rest of the imperfect world, can consume them.
Or perhaps Matti Narkia is the usual variety of parochial Usenet bigot
who thinks that germs in food are problems that only other countries
have.
                                         Steve Harris, M.D.

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: raw eggs
Date: 14 Nov 1998 19:15:34 GMT

In <Pine.SOL.3.96.981113135321.20696A-100000@artsci.wustl.edu> Alex
Brands <abbrands@artsci.wustl.edu> writes:

>Again, I'm with Matti.  I'm sure the chickens in Finland all have
>Salmonella in their gut, but is it really so hard for you to imagine that
>different practices will result in more or less Salmonella on the eggs?


  Because the Salmonella we're concerned about is not ON the eggs but
IN the eggs.  "In" as in inside.  Where even the Finns can't get it out,
however much they entertain themselves with the idea that their
chickens' butts-- and probably theirs as well-- are cleaner than those
in the rest of the world.  Okay?

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: raw eggs
Date: 14 Nov 1998 20:38:13 GMT

In <72ijfc$n3s@enews4.newsguy.com> "Washi Desu" <washi@washi.nu>
writes:

>Japan is one more country where millions of people eat raw eggs almost
>daily (typically for breakfast as a rice condiment), and where
>salmonella outbreaks are extremely rare (and those that occur are
>almost never from eating raw eggs).
>
>I think the usually reliable Dr. Harris is wrong on this one.


   Comment:  The usually reliable Dr. Harris doesn't claim to be right
100% of the time.  However, it's a good idea to check medline before
calling Dr. Harris wrong, in order to avoid possibility of getting
(raw) egg on face, thus suffering risk of salmonellosis.



Kansenshogaku Zasshi 1997 Aug;71(8):730-7

[Biochemical and molecular characterization of Salmonella serovar
enteritidis phage type 4 isolated from food poisoning outbreaks in
Tokyo]. [Article in Japanese]


Kusunoki J, Kai A, Yanagawa Y, Monma C, Shingaki M, Obata H, Itoh T,
Ohta K, Kudoh Y, Nakamura A

Department of Microbiology, Tokyo Metropolitan Research Laboratory of
Public Health.

Since 1989, outbreaks of Salmonella ser. Enteritidis (S. Enteritidis)
food poisoning have dramatically increased in Tokyo, and a total of 31
outbreaks has been reported in 1989. Twenty-one of these 31 outbreaks
were caused by S. Enteritidis PT34, but 8 outbreaks were caused by S.
Enteritidis PT4. After 1990 instead of SE PT34, food poisoning due to
PT4, which was a very common phage type in the UK, has increased in
Tokyo. Between 1989 and 1995, there were 144
food poisoning outbreaks caused by S. Enteritidis, and 64 of these
outbreaks were by due to S. Enteritidis PT4, which was one of the main
phage types in Tokyo. To characterize these strains of phage type (PT)
4,293 isolates from patients, and vehicle foods, eggs and environment
in Tokyo were examined for plasmid DNA profiles, acid productivity from
glycols (propylene and ethylene) and antimicrobial resistance patterns.
Plasmid DNA was extracted by Kado's method, and analyzed by agarose gel
electrophoresis. The acid productivity from propylene glycol or
ethylene glycol were tested using Barsicow medium with 1%
propylene glycol or ethylene glycol. Antimicrobial susceptibility to
AM, CP, TC, SM, KM, NA, ST, FOM and NFLX was tested by the K-B disc
method. The strains of PT4 were further subdivided into 9 types by
those epidemiologic marker analysis. The prevalent pattern of PT4
strains was type A plasmid profile
carrying only one plasmid (60 kb) and there were 2 kinds of
antibiograms. One was SM resistant, while the other was susceptible. A
total of 56 (87.5%) of 64 outbreaks was found to have been caused by
these types of S. Enteritidis. Several kinds of egg-related foods were
suspected as the vehicles of transmission among 24 outbreaks.
Especially, in 5 outbreaks, S. Enteritidis strains were isolated both
from patients and suspected food which were cooked
with egg. This strongly suggests that these foods may be the potential
source of infection in S. Enteritidis PT4 outbreaks.

PMID: 9311189, UI: 97457266

----------

Kansenshogaku Zasshi 1996 Jul;70(7):702-9

[Characterization of Salmonella ser. enteritidis phage type 34 isolated
from food poisoning outbreaks in Tokyo by epidemiological makers].
[Article in Japanese]

Kusunoki J, Kai A, Yanagawa Y, Takahashi M, Shingaki M, Obata H, Itho
T, Ohota K, Kudoh Y, Nakamura A

Department of Microbiology, Tokyo Metropolitan Research Laboratory of
Public Health.

Since 1989, outbreaks of Salmonella ser. Enteritidis food poisoning has
dramatically increased in Tokyo, and a total of 95 outbreaks has been
reported between 1989 and 1993. As the results of examination of phage
type by the method of Ward, et al., strains isolated from 31 (32.6%) of
95 outbreaks were phage type 34 which is a very rare type in Europe and
America. To characterize these unique strains of phage type (PT) 34,
302 isolates obtained from patients and vehicle foods of the outbreaks,
eggs and environments in Tokyo were examined for plasmid DNA profiles
and antimicrobial resistance patterns. Plasmid DNA was extracted by the
Kado's method, and analysed by agalose gel electrophoresis.
Antimicrobial susceptibility was tested for CP, TC, SM, KM,
ABPC, NA, SXT, FOM and NFLX by the K-B disc method. The strains of PT
34 were further subdivided to 4 types by plasmid profile and
antibiogram. The prevalent pattern of PT 34 strains was type plasmid
profile which carried 2 different plasmids (> 250 and 60 kb) and was
streptomysin-resistant. A total of 28 (90.3%) of 31 outbreaks were
found to be caused by this specific type of Salmonella ser.
Enteritidis. Several kinds of egg-related foods were suspected
for the vehicles of transmission among 12 outbreaks. Especially, in 5
outbreaks, this specific type (type B plasmid profile and streptomysin
resistant) of Salmonella ser. Enteritidis strains were isolated both
from patients and incriminated food which were cooked with eggs. The
phase type of Salmonella ser. Enteritidis strains isolated from raw egg
and poultry or environmental specimens from poultry farm showed that
the prevailing phage types were almost the same as those of foods
poisoning outbreaks. This strongly suggests that these foods may be
considered as a source of infection in Salmonella ser. Enteritidis
outbreaks.

PMID: 8797305, UI: 96390263

----------

Kansenshogaku Zasshi 1994 Nov;68(11):1352-8

[Tetracycline-resistant plasmid of Salmonella enteritidis isolated in
Kumamoto City]. [Article in Japanese]

Honda R, Taniguchi H
Kumamoto Municipal Institute of Public Health.

We isolated Salmonella choleraesuis subsp. choleraesuis serovar.
Enteritidis (S. Enteritidis) from a mass of cases which broke out in
September, 1991 in Kumamoto City. The isolates were shown to hold
plasmids on which a tetracycline (TC)-resistant gene was located. The
plasmid, about 9 kb in size, was capable of expressing the gene in
Escherichia coli, unstable in S. Enteritidis and Escherichia coli. Thus
in order to investigate the creeping prevalence of the TC-resistant
plasmid in Kumamoto City and its spreading in other areas, the
strains, a total of 41, including 37 isolates from sporadic cases with
diarrhea in Kumamoto City, 3 isolates from 3 cases of food poisoning in
Kitakyushu, Fukuoka and Chiba, and one strain isolated from egg
solution in Kumamoto City, were examined by the hybridization test with
this plasmid as a probe, as well as for their drug sensitivity and
plasmid profile. As a result, 28 strains of 37 tested from the sporadic
cases, the strains from food poisoning in Kitakyushu, Chiba and the one
from egg solution, all harbored the same 9 kb TC-resistant plasmid.
From the above observations, it was assured that, at the
time of investigation, July to September in 1992, the prevalence of S.
Enteritidis in Kumamoto City was Predominated by its strain carrying
the TC-resistant plasmid. Furthermore, considering the fact that the
strain harboring this plasmid was also found in the food poisoning in
Kitakyushu and Chiba, it was suggested that spreading of this strain
was not restricted to localities and was also associated with Chicken
eggs according to its detection from the egg solution.

PMID: 7829903, UI: 95130995

----------

J Vet Med Sci 1993 Feb;55(1):135-6

The ability of Salmonella enteritidis isolated from chicks imported
from England to cause transovarian infection.

Nakamura M, Nagamine N, Norimatsu M, Suzuki S, Ohishi K, Kijima M,
Tamura Y, Sato S

National Veterinary Assay Laboratory, Tokyo, Japan.

S. Enteritidis HY-1 isolated during quarantine from chicks imported
from England was used. Laying hens at the age of 34 weeks were
inoculated orally with 10(10) organisms (10 birds), intramuscularly
with 10(9) (5 birds), and intravenously with 10(9) (5 birds). Egg
production did not change in hens infected orally, although it was
reduced in hens infected intramuscularly for 2-3 weeks post
inoculation. For one month, internally infected eggs of which
the shells were not contaminated were found: one out of 65 eggs in hens
infected orally and three out of 36 eggs in hens infected
intramuscularly. This experiment demonstrated the ability of S.
Enteritidis isolated from chicks imported from England to cause
transovarian infection.

PMID: 8461409, UI: 93213948

----------




Comment:  Please note that in all this I'm hardly claiming that Japan
is reeling under the onslaught of a killer Salmonella plague that is
burning through the cities like AIDS in Zaire.  But it does happen, and
it happens from eating raw eggs.

Now the question of whether it is WORTH it to continue to eat raw eggs,
is something else entirely.  Immunocompetent people (not infants, not
chemotherapy or AIDS patients, etc, etc) are not at much risk for much
more than diarrhea.  And Japan is a place where they eat things like
Fugu-fish, for Heavens' sake, so they certainly understand the
tradeoffs between pleasure and risk, and the philosophical choices
these entail.

                            The Usually Reliable
                             Steve Harris, M.D.