From: Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:37:51 +0000

william thomas powers wrote:


> Tell him to double check his specs!  All the armour piercing arrowheads
> I have seen in museums have been bodkin points----a square pyramid in shape
> *NOT* a cone  These were forged you know and not expensive---a square taper
> is easy and fast a cone is more work.

At least as important as ease of fabrication is that the square cross
section with it's sharp edges does a better job of cutting through
relatively thin armor than a round one.  Cutting four "petals" and
rolling them inward requires less force than swaging an increasing
diameter round hole.  The aim is to put a hole through the armor just
large enough to allow the arrow shaft to enter freely.  Surface wounds
don't do the job, you have to hit vital organs deep behind the armor.  A
larger hole gains little "stopping power". A quick kill isn't necessary
for for a "long range" miltary weapon.

Another arrow and spear tip was a thin iron rod 8 to 10 inches long,
also easy to fabricate.  It would penetrate armor but the arrow shaft
would not.  It would usually bend, making it impossible for the enemy to
use it to return fire without taking valuable time to carefully
straighten it.

--
Lou Boyd

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 03:30:24 GMT

Hi Ed,

I have made a LOT of forged medieval arrow heads in my time.  Traditional
archery is one of my hobbies and I have a 6'3" 70# English (yew) Longbow that
needs feeding!!

The type of point your friend is asking for is called a "Bodkin" point..a
wickedly needle pointed SQUARE section point up to 4 1/2" long  x 3/8 square at
its widest point.  Shot from an English Warbow (Which STARTED at 70 # and went
up to 110# plus, mounted on an ash warshaft 32 1/2" long 7/16" diameter with 6"
fletches of "Greye Goose Wing" and a horn reinforced nock...its range was an
easy 275yds plus and would give a "Grievous Stripe"!!

Grievous enough, to punch through 1/16" plus, hardened armour, and pin a man to
his dead horse.  To slice through chain mail (or modern Kevlar body armour) as
though it weren't there.  To penetrate a 5" thick seasoned, oak drawbridge!!

In the deadly, lifelong trained hands, and disciplined ranks of medieval English
Yeoman Longbowmen, the English Warbow was the Maxim Gun of its day...Firepower
that was not surpassed in its mass killing power, until the First World War!!

The hard way to make these deadly bodkins, is to first forge the long square
point from 3/8" or 7/16" square stock, and form the narrower, rounded neck
behind it, then cut off with a hot hardie, leaving a stub about 1/2" long.  This
is then forged out, first into a flat fan which is then deeply grooved at its
transition point with a narrow, round edged chisel.

The fan is then formed up on swedge blocks around a tapered mandrel (10 deg
included angle is the modern standard.)  Finally the overlap is forge welded
closed and the whole thing trued and straightened.  A skilled arrowsmith can
forge 20 or 25 of these an hour (NOT me!..One or two an hour is my limit!!)

The EASY (teenut's) way, is to start with 3/8" square MS bar in a collet chuck.
Drill to full depth of the socket with a 1/8" drill  Follow about half way with
a 1/4" drill and then finish to size with a tapered "D" bit.  Turn the tapered
o/d of the socket to a slightly less tapered angle so that the wall thickness
starts at about .040" and gets a bit thicker as it goes.  The neck should start
to flare out to full 3/8" diameter/square, starting from about 2/3 down the
length of the socket.  Part off the square head about half the finished length
required.

Now you can forge the square out into a long tapered bodkin.  Forging a square
point is a lot easier than forging a round one..believe it or not..and one of
the first, recognisable, skills, learned by a budding blacksmith!!  A 1" long
socket and neck with a 1 3/4" long square point, should give your friend a
nicely proportioned, balanced point, light enough for a modern bow. Any heavier
than this, and he won't be able to get arrows with enough "Spine" without
turning to ash or other hardwood. My "Battleshafts" weigh in at almost 800
grains, compared to a modern, hunting shaft, at around 325 grains!!

Finish, if you can, to a "polished planish" without filing, or grinding..it
doesn't look right and you can never disguise it!  With a steel mandrel in the
socket, lightly planish this also, to hide the machining marks..(Shh..I never
told you that!!)

Heat treat by deeply case hardening the point..I double dip in kasenit, and
quench in cold water.  no temper required.  This point, in the hands of a good
bowman, will punch through 1/8" mild steel plate!!  A friend of mine has a WWII
vintage GI steel helmet, with a bodkin pointed Battleshaft, clear through one
side and half way out the other!

teenut



Ed Bailen wrote:

> A friend who is in to SCA-type archery has asked if I can make him
> some medieval, armor-piercing, arrow heads.  Per his "specs", they are
> a simple cone about 2" long and about 0.5" diameter at the base.  The
> problem is the socket at the base to receive the arrow shaft.
> Ideally, it should have a conical shape also to evenly distribute the
> load on the shaft (with some "bluntness" allowed at the tip of the
> cone), but the actual dimensions are not too critical.  (The included
> angle at the tip of the socket cone probably shouldn't exceed 45
> degrees.)
>
> I figure I can make the socket with a stepped series of drills and a
> custom HSS tapered tool to finish it off, but I can't figure out how
> to hold the beast while drilling the socket.
>
> One way might be to start out with a 4" length of 0.5" rod and hollow
> out one end for 2", with the tapered socket at the end.  Then I could
> flip it end for end to make the arrowhead, and part it off.  If that
> would work, how thick would the walls have to be on the hollow shaft
> assuming I take light cuts on the arrow head.  (My 6" Craftsman
> doesn't do heavy cuts.)
>
> Thanks,
> Ed

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:17:57 GMT

I can relate to the Big Bow Ernie!

Though my yew English Longbow is ONLY 70# draw @ my 29" I have seen it humble
strong men.  An aquaintance of mine, accustomed to a 65# Compound (Training
wheels!!!) bow grabbed it and I thought he was going to bust a blood vessel
trying to get past 2/3 draw..he never did!  It takes a lot of training of
particular muscle groups to achieve full draw an a "heavy".

There was a lot of controversy about the weight of old English Warbows,
especially after the raising of the "Mary Rose" and the discovery of hundreds of
well preserved bows from the late medieval period.  Because of their sheer size
a lot of "Learned Scholars" deduced that thes were "unfinished" bow
staves...refusing to believe that an average man..especially of the shorter
average stature of those days, could draw a bow of those weights.

Which is absolute poppycock, as has been demonstrated since, to the satisfaction
of most people..though not all.  Firstly, the thought of a warship setting out
to go to war, carrying unfinished staves and no finished bows is idiotic.
Secondly, examination of a couple of skeletons, has found changes in bone
structure that could only be brought about by a lifetime of practice with these
big bows.

English bowyers have faithfully reproduced several samples..to the best of their
considerable ability and working with the poorer quality Oregon Yew..which is
about all that is available now.  Draw weights have resulted that range from 90
to 125 pounds.  There are a select few, practiced archers who can draw this
weight effortlessly and the performance results, shooting the heavy, ash
shafted, iron headed battleshafts is outstanding!!

The thought of seeing a couple of thousand of these fearsome missiles,
descending every few seconds into packed ranks is truly frightening. It has been
calculated that the English Archers fired off close to three quarters of a
million battleshafts during the three hour period of the Battle of Agincourt!
The carnage among the French ranks was appalling..Tens of thousands were
killed..and they only counted "Those of Rank"!!

Not that these old archers were simply trained to shoot en mass at area targets
either.  When the range got down to 100 yards or less it was a foolish man that
exposed an unarmoured armpit, or as one high ranking noble did..raised his visor
for a breath of air.  Within seconds, two or three shafts hit him full in his
open mouth!!

teenut



Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:


> Well I still have my 100# Martin longbow and occassionally warp my spine
> stringing the thing.
> I made and shot a bunch of armour peircers a few years ago and bodkin
> points coming off my 100# bow on 3/8" cedar shafts, will punch big holes
> in 1/8" steel at 100 yds.
> Part of owning and shooting a 100# bow is the challenge of finding out
> just how much the thing can do.
> I always enjoyed shooting it with the St.Sebastians Guild in Norhern Cal.
> We would all fire in cadence in a row.
> Releasing simultaneously, my arrows would always hit first with almost
> no visible arc to the path at anything below 50 yds.
>
> I did learn that I have to use flat point blunt tips if I want to get my
> arrows out of compressed cedar bails, and straw bails are like tissue, I
> can't count how many fletches I had ripped off by arrows flying through
> bails.
> One other problem is that the string is larger than any snap nocks and
> in the Guild we shot self nocked arrows anyway.
> Fun bow.
> I should get back into shooting it before I get to old to shoot the
> brutish beast. My 34 year old rotater cup is still pretty strong from
> many years of power lifting, but I have been warned about trying to
> shoot it once my joints start to age.
> Believe me, this bow humbles the biggest man.
> I always enjoyed bringing it to shoots just because everybody else would
> have to try drawing it. Most couldn't even get it half way.
> It took me 6 months of training to work up from my 60# bow to the 100#
> Martin. I am glad it is fiberglass because wood and sinew bows have a
> short useful life of about 10 years before they dry out.
> When I bought it for my birthday, I had the choice of 100# or 120# for
> the same price.
> Many is the time I have thanked the stars that I was wise enough not to
> order the 120# bow.
> I have never met anyone else strong enough to draw my bow to full draw,
> and the thought of someone shooting a 120# version makes me very scared.
> I know that the famous Howard Hill took down a bull elephant with a 160#
> longbow of his own design. The arrow had a 1 lb. steel head, and a 1/2"
> ash shaft.
>
> BTW I made my bodkin points by cheating.
> I forged the points and then TIG welded them onto blunt arrow heads that
> already had the tapered hole.
> Much quicker.

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:28:31 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
From: Tom Holt <lemming.co@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads

The message <pGeo4.1176$ps1.116107@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com>
  from  Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> contains these words:


> There was a lot of controversy about the weight of old English Warbows,
> especially after the raising of the "Mary Rose" and the discovery of
> hundreds of well preserved bows from the late medieval period.  Because
> of their sheer size a lot of "Learned Scholars" deduced that thes were
> "unfinished" bow staves...refusing to believe that an average
> man..especially of the shorter average stature of those days, could draw
> a bow of those weights.
>
> Which is absolute poppycock, as has been demonstrated since, to the
> satisfaction of most people..though not all.  Firstly, the thought of a
> warship setting out to go to war, carrying unfinished staves and no
> finished bows is idiotic. Secondly, examination of a couple of
> skeletons, has found changes in bone structure that could only be
> brought about by a lifetime of practice with these big bows.

The theory about the Mary Rose bows that intrigues me most is the one
that points out that these bows date from the reign of Henry VIII,
who was extremely worried about the *decline* of English archers and
archery, and who passed laws making weekly archery practice
obligatory for adult males in an attempt to halt this perceived
decline. The frequent complaint, as I recall, was that it was no
longer possible to find men strong and skillful enough to use the
kind of bows that won the major battles of the previous century...

Go figure; if the rib-busting, tendon-ripping monsters fished up with
the Mary Rose were, in effect, Junior Scout models issued to effete
and decadent weaklings who couldn't (in Henry's opinion) punch their
way out of a wet paper bag... it seems to follow that the longbows at
Crecy and Sluys and Agincourt must've been even heavier; like, 175-200lb...

Ouch.

(In passing; consider the theory that guns replaced bows not because
they were better weapons, but because of a shortage of men able to
use bows effectively. Arguably, the range, power, rate of fire and
accuracy of the longbow wasn't bettered by a military weapon until
the invention of the Spencer rifle in the 1850s. The last serious
attempt to persuade a major government to replace its firearms with
bows was made by one Benjamin Franklin, during the Revolutionary War.)

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:55:43 GMT

Undoubtedly a "square hit" at 100 yards would punch through all but the thickest
points of contempory armor.  Know ing this, the armorourers went to great length
to develop sloping, curved and fluted armour to help deflect the arrow point.

The bodkin was case hardened so as to retain the tremendous core strength,
required to resist the bending forces involved in penetrating after an off
square hit.

Armor became progressively thicker and the points progressively shoter and
blunter as years went by.  Eventually, some crossbow quarrel heads had a flat or
concave punch format.

Any die maker will tell you, that a flat shaped punch penetrates far easier than
a pointed one.

teenut

Lou Boyd wrote:

> Robert Bastow wrote:
>
> > Not that these old archers were simply trained to shoot en mass at
> > area targets either.  When the range got down to 100 yards or less it
> > was a foolish man that exposed an unarmoured armpit, or as one high
> > ranking noble did..raised his visor for a breath of air.  Within
> > seconds, two or three shafts hit him full in his open mouth!!
>
> Are you saying that the armor of the day was fairly effective at
> deflecting an iron arrow point from a 100 lb bow at 100 yards?  I'm not
> arguing, just curious.
> Was it that the arrow no longer had the energy to penetrate or that the
> curves and angle caused it to deflect to the side.   Would a lucky
> perpendicular hit still penetrate easily?    Were the military arrow
> points hardened and extremly sharp to allow them to "catch" on non
> perpendicular hit?

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:46:31 GMT

It has been demonstrated that the tension required across the back muscles is of
the order of five times the bow weight. (Just as weights are best lifted with
the thigh muscles, the big bow is drawn with the back muscles, NOT the arms.

So, a "puny" 70# longbow such as my own, requires a pull across the back muscles
of 350#!!  Imagine the modern world record for the longbow is 200# on a yew bow
built by Jerry Welch a couple of years ago.

That bow is thicker at the nocks than mine is around the grip!!  Gerry built
this bow, which was subsequently offered for sale for $59,000.00 only about
three years after he built mine!!  He wasn't as famous then but still had a
twelve month waiting list and prices that would bring tears to a glass eye!!

Why didn't I make my own?  Indeed I have made many composite and self bows in my
time. Some quite good ones (and a lot of "Slugs")

Well, until you see the pure magic of such a bow, with its rich bronze belly
wood and creamy sapwood, with the form following the growth rings so precisely
you woud imagine it simply grew into its present form.  Heft it in your
hand..light as a feather and perfectly balanced it draws as smooth as silk with
a steady increase of draw weight throughout, with not a trace of stacking.

At release the "Cast" is incredible! Faster and flatter than any other wood, it
is easy to see why yew is so prized as the King of Bow Woods.  Even with light
target arrows, hand shock is totally absent and with its complete lack of vices
it is an easy bow to shoot accurately.

I was amazed when I eventually received my bow.  Jerry and I had struck up quite
a long distance correspondence during the waiting period. I had received much
encouragement from him in my bowmaking and arrow making endevours.

In the long package was my long awaited "Welchman" Longbow, signed and with my
name and the draw weight and length inked on it.  It came with a spare, hand
made, flenish lay bowstring of finest Irish flax.  In the package were two
"common" yew billets "for practice" and a pair of the finest "sister" billets of
Oreon Yew that I ever imagined existed!  Those billets, even if they could be
purchased now would command a price up to a couple of hundred dollars!!

In the package was a long letter from Gerry, Thanking me for for my patience and
pointing to the cause of the delay..In the package was ANOTHER gorgeous Welchman
Longbow..with MY name on it!!  Except that this one had been brutally smashed in
two over Gerry's knee.

He explained, that in the final tillering and testing it had, inexplicably,
turned out to be a "Slug"..lacking the fabulous "cast" of a true thoroughbred.
It had been dispatched without mercy and a new bow crafted for me!!

Such is the stuff of legend!!

A week later another package turned up...seven, (a baker's half dozen??) of
magnificent, hand crafted battle shafts, horn knocked and grey goose fletched
with red spiral binding to hold the feathers in place, even if the hide glue
softened in the rain.

Those shafts served as an inspiration to my own efforts, and after a year, I was
able, not just to equal them..but to better them!!  Gerry himself said so when I
sent him a dozen of my own manufacture, spined for his own 65# hunting bow and
tipped with medieval hunting broad heads of my own manufacture. Six months later
a letter and a photo, attested to the fact that he had stocked their larder with
a large black bear..taken with one of my shafts and points!!

Such is the stuff of legend!!

teenut



Bob Unitt wrote:

> In article <pGeo4.1176$ps1.116107@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com>, Robert Bastow
> <"teenut"@hotmail.com> writes
> >There are a select few, practiced archers who can draw this
> >weight effortlessly and the performance results, shooting the heavy, ash
> >shafted, iron headed battleshafts is outstanding!!
>
> There's at least one archer in the UK regularly shooting a 140-pound yew
> long-bow - I never managed to draw more than 70 myself.
>
> Ever had one break on you at full draw ?  They always go into three
> pieces - the middle stays in your hand, the top-end whacks down on your
> head, and where the bottom-end whips up to I'll leave as an exercise for
> the reader...
>
> --
> Bob Unitt (UK)

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:45:01 GMT

Dunno what kind of 30 caliber you have in mind Hoyt..maybe using soft points?
With a solid core or AP bullet I wouldn't want to stand behind the door.

The reference to the piercing abilities comes from an incident when IIRC Welsh
bowmen fired at a retreating Englishman or Norman an several arrow heads were
seen to pentrate the oak drawbridge and protrude from the other side.

So far as range is concerned, the English practice sport was called "Clout
Shooting"..the target being laid flat on the ground at long range...222 yds was
considered the absolute minimum...for Juveniles and Old Men!. At Finsbury
Shooting Grounds the farthest  mark was at "Nineteen Score" or 380 yards!  By
the 17th Century these ranges had been reduced to 140 and 220 yards...remember
it takes, if not a lifetime, a LONG time to develop the strength to pull the big
bows of old..and people had quit doing that.

Tests of the "Mary Rose" replicas have shown consistent ranges averaging 320
yards for the bodkin point and 350 yards for lighter type arrows.  Remember,
that these battleshafts are two to four times as heavy as a modern Port Orford
Cedar shaft..ranging from 600 to 950 grains..the penetration at long ranges is
still formidable.

BTW the world "flight bow" record now stands at over a thousand yards..albeit
with VERY special equipment.

Yes you CAN stop a razor edged broadhead with a folded towel..The principle of a
lot of ancient (and modern) armour is to cushion and entangle the point.....But
don't try it with a needle pointed Bodkin though..you would be skewered through
and through!

So far as the dummy at 200 yards is concerned..obviously not much of a bow, or a
bowman!  I can hit a man sized target, often enough at 200 yards, to make it a
very dangerous place to be.  If the stump I am shooting at, turns out to be less
than rotten, I have to chop the arrow head out with an axe!

teenut

Hoyt McKagen wrote:
>
> Robert Bastow wrote:
> > though it weren't there.  To penetrate a 5" thick seasoned, oak drawbridge!!
>
> Nice try Robert, but a modern .30 caliber with ten times the muzzle
> energy won't do that reliably, so why should we believe an arrow will?
>
> In fact, I can stop even a razor edged broadhead shot from full draw,
> with a towel, and you probably know that trick too.
>
> I saw an interesting show BTW on the trebuchet, in which a demo was made
> of the longbow, to show how trebuchet could stand off too far for
> successful defending. The target was an armored dummy set about 200 yards
> from the archer. Most of his arrows fell short. Then they  demo'd the
> shot from about ten yards, and sure enough the arrow did penetrate the
> entire dummy and wound up hanging out the back side by the fletching.
> Clearly this was a powerful bow, so I want to question your estimate of
> 275 yards range too.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Hoyt McKagen

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:34:27 GMT

"Casually Lobbed" implies it was a snap shot..not a concentrated bearing down of
concentration.

Try a snap shot with your varmint rifle at a phone pole 75 yards away!

teenut

Gunner wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:08:44 GMT, Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I think the point is Gunner..The man professed to be a "Good Shot"
> >
> >To casually lob an arrow that distance into a target six inches wide
> >would take an absof***inglutely INCREDIBLE Archer.
> >
> >The other guy probably went home, burned his bow, and took up needlepoint!
> >
> >teenut
>
> Oh.. Ok. I was just wondering... I guess shooting at ground squirrels
> (like a prarie dog) out here in the desert at various ranges jaded me a
> bit.  I couldnt figure out what I was missing.
>
> Thanks for clearing that up.  I couldnt figure if the gent had "clout"
> shot into the disk of the top or just that big assed pole.
>
> Gunner
>
>
> >Gunner wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:56:29 GMT, ryanreid@sprintmail.com (Ryan C. Reid) wrote:
> >>
> >> >I'm not sure if its true, diluted fact or just urban legend .. but
> >> >
> >> >Howard Hill supposedly while filming the shots for the Robin Hood
> >> >movies was approached by a "lay" archer who professed to be a good
> >> >shot.  Hill asked the man if he could see that telephone pole, as he
> >> >pointed to a pole about 75 yds away.  The man responded "yes, I think
> >> >I could hit that."  Hill drew an arrow and lobbed it into the top of
> >> >the pole, turned and walked away...
> >> >
> >> >Ryan
> >>
> >> And?.......

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:48:40 GMT

Mine is a precisely?? measured 17"..but I have a draw length of 29 1/2" to a
jawbone anchor, on my 70# longbow.

If your draw length is so short I suspect you are drawing with your arms
...rather than opening up your chest and using the power of your shoulder and
back muscles.

When I first started moving to bigger longbows, my draw was a skinny 26"..not
far from average for a nose anchor.  I now shoot entirely instinctively..the
result I believe of being brought up in England..where boys learn to throw rocks
and spears, and shoot sling shots and bows..rather than learning from an early
age to squint down the barrel of a rifle.

It is a good job I can..I am "left eyed" and shoot bows and shotguns right
handed (AAA Skeet!!)

teenut

Charles Gallo wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:31:41 GMT, gunner@cyberg8t.com (Gunner) wrote:
> <snip>
> >hehe, sounds like we are built about the same<snip>
>
> My problem is that I have VERY short arms and legs.  I've looked for a
> bow around town, and I'd have to special order or by a woman's or
> child's bow!  I don't remember exactly what my draw length is, but we
> have a local TARGET (as apposed to hunting) bow shop and range, and
> the guy was surprised how short my draw was! (My forearm is 16" from
> inside of the elbow to the tip of my middle finger)
>
> Charlie
>
> -- PGP Key on Request
> For the Children RKBA!

From: Ernie Leimkuhler <stagesmith@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:50:39 GMT

In article <ts4p4.1294$ps1.119798@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com>, Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Lou Boyd wrote:
> You got me there Lou..I know none of the details.  Flight shooting is so
> specialised..and interests me not one bit so I simply haven't kept up with
> it.
>
> I would imagine that a search on "flight bow" will turn up a wealth of
> information.
>
> teenut
>
>
> > I'd be very interested in hearing a description of the equipment used
> > for either a 1000 yard or mile shot, especially information about the
> > arrow including it's weight distribution, shape, fletchings (if used at
> > all) and initial velocity.  I haven't followed archery competition since
> > the 1960's, but the record was just over 900 yards then if I remember
> > correctly.
> >
> > --
> > Lou Boyd

Flight bows are usually:

Center shot (the arrow passes through the center of the bow riser, not on
	one side or the other ),
Over draw (the arrow is shorter than the distance from the anchor point
	to the bow riser so the arrow point is several inches "inside"
	the bow resting on long thin flipper rests),
Cammed Recurve (these are hybrid bows using recurve limbs and a compound
	mecanism at the base of the limb, not out at the ends of the limb).
They are extremely fast.
The Onieda Eagle is a fine example of a Cammed Recurve.
Flight bows look like something from a Science Fiction book cover.
I believe the record now is close to 1700 yards (over a mile)

The arrows used on these are about 3/16" diameter, with tiny helical
vanes and a bullet point.
They are also usually aluminum since Graphite arrows have a bad habit of
exploding on launch from a bow that fast.

This practice is very similar to the historical practice of the Turks to
shoot extremely short heavy composite bows using short tiny arrows.
There are distance markers at the royal archery field in Constantinople
that go out to 450 yards.
The arrows were overdrawn by having the tip ride on a horn guide that
extended inside the bow for a few inches.
The guide was worn like a ring.
Now the Turks used a different release than we use.
They used a Thumbring, where the string is held by the thumb.
The thumb is protected by a horn, jade, stone or metal ring.
The thumb is locked by the forefinger.
When you lift your forefinger the thumb flipps out to the side and
releases the string.

If you are right handed you will find that this will not work on a right
handed western bow.
The arrow has to right on the right side of the riser, not the left as a
western bow would have it.
This is because the side of your forefinger hits the base of the arrow
and swings it to your left.
If you try to use a thumb release on a western style bow the arrow will
keep jumping off of the rest.
You need a left handed bow so the arrow shelf is on the proper side for a
thumb release.
The Turks used snap nocks made of horn to keep the arrow on the string.
This is the same release used by the Mongols and the Huns for shooting
from Horseback.
Try shooting from a horse without a snapnock, not easy.
Keep in mind that their bowstrings were about 1/4" diameter, either made
of horsehair or gut.

I learned a lot of this in college.

A freind of mine who was also in the SCA was a Military History Grad
student and was writing a treatise on mongol bows so he had a thumbring
made and we went out to see how it worked.  It was a pretty funny day at
the range that day.
Thumbrings take quite a bit of practice to use, and need I mention how
sore our thumbs were the next day.
We succesflully used it on a 45# left handed recurve.

--
STAGESMITH - Custom Metal Fabrication - Renton, WA, US

"Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind."
                                                 William Shakespear

From: Lou Boyd <boyd@apt2.sao.arizona.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Armor-Piercing Arrowheads
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:15:58 +0000

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:

> Flight bows are usually:

 [[...]]

That's very interesting information about both the modern and ancient
bows.

If an arrow were perfect with no drag, to travel a mile (1760 yd) it
would have to leave the bow at a minimum of 412.2 fps (45 degree angle,
flight time 18.12 sec).  A quality .50 BMG match bullet (ballistic
coefficient 1.0) has to be shot at least 452 fps at 40 degrees, and a
flight time 17.4 seconds, to travel a mile.  The arrow's velocity,
optimum angle, and flight time are no doubt between those values.

What are the rules of flight matches?  Do you just have to be strong
enough to pull what you bring or are there specific weight, style, or
material limits?  It would seem like winning such a match would required
a lot of engineering skills, money for exotic materials, and brute
strength to shoot the beast.

Metal working content: I don't understand what properties of aluminum
would make it the optimum choice for arrows.  I would thing that
something like titanium would allow an equally strong and stiff arrow
with equal weight and a slightly smaller diameter to reduce drag.


--
Lou Boyd

From: Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Bet you didn't know this?
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 07:19:29 GMT

By the way..This gesture was used BEFORE battles..to provoke the French to
charge into a deadly killing ground. Five thousand archers x 18 arrows per
minute = wholesale slaughter not seen untill the Maxim gun came along.

And English arrows were fletched with "Grey Goose"..more usually, "Domestic
White Goose" or Swan feathers...Pheasant feathers are far too small and soft.
the Battle Shaft fletch was six to seven inches long, 3/4" high, and usually,
cropped in a long, straight, triangular shield shape..though occasionally the
"hogsback" shape was used for broad heads.

They would be glued on with hide or better, rabbit skin glue, to a glue sized
shaftment, and then spiral bound for insurance against damp, with a
(traditionally red) linen thread or a single strand of horse hair.

The nock end of the shaft would be sawed down, with the grain, about 1 1/4" and
a sliver of horn glued in for reinforcement against the tremendous thrust of the
bowstring.  The nock would then be cut at right angles to the reinforcement.

Heads were a simple push fit onto the tapered foot of the shaft and not pinned
in place..this served several purposes. Firstly, the head could be chosen and
issued just before the battle and fitted or changed in seconds to suit the
target.  Bodkins for mail or armour at shorter ranges, broad heads or forked
"rippers" at longer distance against horses..the objective being to cause pain,
blood, disruption and terror among the horses..much more effective than actually
killing the horse or rider!

Secondly the number of arrows required to be carried in train was reduced if the
heads were changeable..and the headless arrows took up less space it the
bagage.  Remember that an army on the march would cary upwards of a million
arrows with it!!

Thirdly, an attempt by the wounded enemy to remove the arrow, would leave the
head behind to fester.  The enemy could not recover arrows and fire them back.
And lastly..during a respite in a long battle, arrow parties would be sent out
to recover shafts from bodies and the ground. The bare shafts needed only to
have a new head twisted into place before being fired again. Medieval
Logistics!!

The Shaft would be 7/16" to 1/2" diameter x 32 1/2" long (the old "Clothyard")
made of ash and weighing, with a 3" bodkin point, between 800 and 1000 grains.
Packed a hell of a wallop from a 100lb plus Yew Warbow!!

teenut

Robert Bastow wrote:
>
> Close Jack..but no cigar!!
>
> The actual TRUE story is that the French threatened to cut of the first TWO
> fingers of any capture archer.
>
> The Licencious Soldiery, responded by raising those TWO fingers in a reversed
> "V" for Victory sign..the classic British equivalent of "Flipping the Bird"
>
> I am not sure about the "Pluck Yew" part of it..more likely than not,
> they used the Olde English term "F**K YOU" right from the get-go!!  That
> word, of Anglo-Saxon origin, has been in the English language a lot
> longer than any of the ones in more polite usage! Those were mainly an
> introduction by the prudish Victorians
>
> teenut
>
> Jack Erbes wrote:
> >
> > Here is one for the Anglophiles and Archers, we covered a lot of ground
> > on those topics lately and I can't believe that this was not brought
> > out.
> >
> >                                       /'_/)
> >                                     ,/_  /
> >                                    /    /
> >                              /'_'/'   '/'__'/','/'
> >                           /'/    /    /    /   /_\
> >                          ('(    '    '     _    \
> >                          \                       |
> >                           \                 '    /
> >                           '\'   \          _./'
> >                             \             \
> >                              \             \
> >
> > Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory
> > over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured
> > English soldiers.
> >
> > Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned
> > English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future.
> >
> > This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act
> > of drawing the longbow was known as "plucking the yew" (or "pluck yew").
> >
> > Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset
> > and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the
> > defeated French, saying, "See, we can still pluck yew! "PLUCK YEW!"
> >
> > Since 'pluck yew' is rather difficult to say, the difficult consonant
> > cluster at the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental
> > fricative 'F', and thus the words often used in conjunction with the
> > one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an
> > intimate encounter.
> >
> > It is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows used w/ the
> > longbow that the symbolic gesture is known as "giving the bird".
> >
> > And yew thought yew knew everything.
> >
> > This is credible enough, is there any chance it is true?
> >
> > --
> > Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (jack@vom.com)