From: Robert Bastow <teenut@home.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: DELURK: matchlock gun barrels
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 05:39:10 GMT

richgoth, sydney wrote:

> Black powder develops pressures of up to 25,00psi...

Whoaa!

Where did you get THAT idea!!

It is a MYTH that can KILL you!

BP can develop pressures WAY over 25000psi !

If you want to make your own barrels, use mechanical DOM (Drawn over mandrel)
hollow bar.  Use MILD STEEL not 4140..it is easier to cut and has better
elongation. No need for fancy stuff unless you are using jacketed bullets.  With
lead bullets you are likely to wear it out from cleaning LONG befor you shoot it
out.

It is spec'ed by O/d and wall thickness, thus 1 1/4" - 3/8" wall will give you a
half inch bore.  Unless you are fussy about a particular bore diameter..which
the old time gunmakers never were..you are ready to rifle and lap.

Then take a LARGE (14") mill bastard file to the outside, and remove all the
bits that don't look like a rifle barrel. Hard work, but it goes surprisingly
quickly!  If I had to do one today, I would do it by hand (might cheat a bit on
the big belt grinder)..but it is how it was done, and it IS faster than setting
up on the mill!! Especially if you want a nice, elegant, swamped muzzle.

The old gunsmiths made beautiful barrels with what appears, to the modern
layman, to be crude tools.  But the principles are sound and they work as well
today as they did then. I HAVE made rifle barrels (very accurate ones too) by
the same methods...and, because I was in the UK at the time, for the same
reasons and under the same restrictions.

You certainly don't need a lathe, but neither do you need to go welding up your
tubes from reclaimed horseshoe nails.(Though I do know a guy that welds his own
four wire Damascus Twist barrels, and they are works of art!!)

The old gunsmiths would have died to have hollow bar available from the local
Metal Supermarket!!  ;^)

Indeed, one of the first, widely distributed iron/steel mill products was
octagonal hollow bar for rifle makers!!  Octagonal because it was easier to roll
it thus, and it stayed octagonal because it is quicker and easier to file and
finish it thus!  (..and you always thought..!!)   ;^)

You sound like someone who enjoys the research aspect of this too.  I can
suggest no better beginning than books like Ned Robert's  "The Muzzle Loading
Caplock Rifle"  It is out of print..but not rare or expensive.  Start your
search in OZ with Michael Treloar Antiquarian Books in Adelaide  (+61 8 8223
1111 <Treloars@ozemail.com> )

Say Hi to Sue for me!! I just ordered an OOP, two volume, Slip Covered, Limited
Ist Edition of "The Bolt Action - A Design Analysis" by Prescott, from them.
Now that IS rare and expensive..so they might be taking a vacation when you
call!!  8^(

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:36:23 GMT

William Handzlik wrote:

> As I understand the round ball is good out to about 50 to 75 yards and the
> accuracy drops off depend on the winds and mini ball is more accuracy out to about
> 150 yards.
> There is some books on black power shooting that can give you some information
> from the local sporting good store. I have heard of some black power guns can
> shoot out to 800 yards.
>

and beyond.  The Muzzle loader's Association of Great Britain regularly hold
long rang shoot up to 1800 yards.

Rifles of choice include Whitworth, Gibbs, Alexander Henry and Rigby Match
Target Rifles..usually with a 32 to 36" barrel, .451 caliber, 18 to 22" twist
and shoot a 530 grain, flat based, paper patched bullet, using 90 to 120 grains
of ffg black powder.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:54:04 GMT

Robert Swinney wrote:
>
> Excuse the double post - the ng server first said it was undeliverabe so I
> hit it again.  Sorry!  BTW there is a documented case of a sniper with
> telescopically sighted US Army civil war rifle (musket) killing a
> Confederate general at a range of one mile.  This was done with a minie
> ball.
> Bob Swinney
>
> "Robert Swinney" <judybob@home.com> wrote in message
> news:yJhq5.103139$6y5.71635711@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > A round ball is not as "accurate" a minie ball which is not as
> > accurate as a modern boat-tail bullet - but there is no specific range
> > at which "accuracy falls off" with any particular type of bullet.
> > Bullet stability (?) is effected by many things. Two things that
> > impact accuracy (stability) is the correct amount of rifling twist for
> > the weight and shape of the bullet and the bullet's ability to
> > withstand the effects of the air it is fired through.  There are many
> > others, such as the shape factor, or sectional density, of the bullet.
> > An oblong bullet (with high sectional density) requires a faster
> > rifling twist to stabilize it than does a round ball, and it has
> > greater wind-bucking ability.  On the other hand, longitudinal balance
> > is more critical with the oblong bullet, but it generally takes less
> > time in flight than the round ball and is under the influence of
> > distrubances for less time than a round ball of equal weight.
> > 
> > The "accuracy" of a bullet is degraded by many things from the time it
> > is loaded into the cartridge case (or gun muzzle) and these
> > degradations effect different bullets in different ways.  There is no
> > quantifiably accurate range to ascribe to any particular type of
> > projectile.  All things considered, the round ball is the least ""
> > accurate "".
> > Bob Swinney
> >
> >
> >
> > Handzlik" <jackeddy@sgi.net> wrote in message
> > news:39A97BC7.4AD6E207@sgi.net...
> > > As I understand the round ball is good out to about 50 to 75 yards
> > > and the accuracy drops off depend on the winds and mini ball is more
> > > accuracy out to about 150 yards. There is some books on black power
> > > shooting that can give you some information from the local sporting
> > > good store. I have heard of some black power guns can shoot out to
> > > 800 yards.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rhbuxton wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > A simple question.  At what range does the difference between a
> > > > round ball and a "mini" ball show up in accuracy?
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Rick
> > >
> >
> >

Not a Minie ball..The shartpshooter in that incident used a flat based,
hexagonal section, elongated lead bullet, in an English Whitworth, hexagonal
bored rifle.

The distinguishing feature of a "minie" bullet is its hollow base..used with or
without a metal, wood, clay or papier mache base plug.  The original intention
being that the plug was forced into the cup shaped base cavity by the exploding
powder, expanding the bullet skirt to fill the rifling.

It was very quickly determined that the wallop given to a plain bullet
base..even a hardened lead bullet is sufficient to cause upsetting in the
bore...Eliminating the occasional tendency of the Minie slug to shed all or part
of its skirt..even for the base plug to blow right through the bullet.

In the hands of an expert, a good, patched, round ball rifle will out shoot a
minie rifle up to about 150 yards.  Thereafter the Minie has a definite
edge..one reason being a reduced tendency to "drift" due to its rotation, and of
course, because its better ballistic coefficient causes less velocity loss..the
trajectory is flatter and less affected by side winds.

However, at a hunderd yards, I would back the patched ball!

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:02:20 GMT

Steve Rayner wrote:
>
> There is something wrong here! A rifle is not a musket.....ever! A musket
> has a smooth bore, a rifle has a rifled barrel.

Ah..But!!

During the transition period between smooth bore "Muskets" and rifled
"Rifles"..generally accepted as the period 1820 to 1860..the common practice was
to rifle the barrels of smooth bore muskets in order to utilise the new Minie'
bullets.  They were commonly, then, referred to as "Rifled Muskets"

Indeed, standard military nomenclature of that period, refered to Springfields,
Enfields, etc, designed from the get go to shoot minie slugs, as "Rifled
Muskets.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 02:31:33 GMT

Gary wrote:
> I'm not going to try crank out actual numbers for the Whitworth because
> I don't know the sectional density or ballistic coefficient of the Whitworth
> bullet. A safe assumption is that they're worse than those of a modern bullet.

Not a whole hell of a lot worse Gary..

The whitworth hexagonal "Bolt" in 451 caliber is actualy .447 across flats. (to
allow for paper patching which was NOT glued on but expected to shed at the
muzzle..I know because I used to shoot a whitworth and have picked up scores of
patches in policing th range after a session.

The length is  about 2 1/2" in a 530 grain slug.

muzzle velocity of the order of 1800 fps.

From memory..the drop on our 1800 yard shoots was 16 feet or so..easily
accomodated by the ladder sights of the day.  Remember too that the "Drop" of a
bullet fired horizontally is not quite the same as one fired on an upward
trajectory...it has to stop going up..before it starts going down. Sothe
"Holdover" might be half of the theoretical drop.

The advantage of the big, heavy slug comes in wind bucking..which is far more
difficult to judge than range..and far more predictable at 1800 yards with the
Whitworth than say the .303 I used to shoot up to 1200 yards in competition.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:39:28 GMT

Gary Coffman wrote:

> It should have good sectional density, but the ballistic coefficient of
> a hexagonal bullet can't be good. It has to be spinning at about 200,000
> RPM to stabilize, and that hex shape has to be acting like a fan and
> kicking up a lot of turbulence compared to a clean modern HPBT.

In actual fact we used cylindrical bullets..it was long ago discovered that they
perform eqally well in the whitworths hexagonal bore..Damn sight easier to make
the mold too!  The flat based, grease grooved bullet was a tad longer and
heavier than the hex "bolt" and shot very cleanly.

> It is true that as the bullet gets smaller, the ratio of surface area to
> volume (and hence mass) becomes larger. That means there's relatively
> more square inches against which the wind can act per unit mass. But for
> a given muzzle energy, increasing the bullet mass decreases velocity,
> and hence time of flight gets longer, which gives the wind longer to
> kick the bullet around. A smaller or bigger bullet would perform less
> well than one that falls near the optimum for the muzzle energy of the
> rifle used.

It is true that SD has everything to do with wind deflection..more important is
the need to keep the speed above sonic velocity..the big, heavy slugs would
sustain speed much better than smaller, lighter bullets.  At trans-sonic speeds
turbulance can cause severe deflection and drift.


> With the specs you gave for the Whitworth, it has a ME of 3833 foot pounds.
> For MEs in the range of 3500 to 4000, the caliber range which works best is
> .37 to .44 cal. The Whitworth is a tad big for its ME, but not too much so.
>  I wonder if the old guys calculated this out or discovered it empirically.
> Probably the latter.

Whitworth was given the weight of bullet..530 grains..same as a Brown Bess
Ball..deemed desireable by the Rifle committee, together with the service powder
load of IIRC, 70 grains of powder.  He calculated bore size and length from that
and the twist required to stabilize that length of bullet at the expected MV.

During his experiments he was successful in producing and shooting a barrel with
a 1" twist.  Many feared that a hexagonal bullet would "Jam in the bore..but
this was proven not to be the case.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:10:06 GMT

Ttools@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> I am not familiar with this hex bore rifle, just how was the bore made.
> It must be a smooth bore. Just when were they first made and what was
> the original purpose intended like hunting or wars.
> Tom

The Whitworth Hexagonal bore was just that.  It started with a smooth bore tube
of IIRC .442" diameter and a suitable scrape cutter was pulled through it,
guided by a spiralling mechanism, to produce a rifled bore of hexagonal
section.  The bullet or "Bolt" was similarly shaped with a twisted hexagonal
section to fit the bore.

Sir Joseph developed the system in answer to a request from the British Small
Arms Committee to investigate the elements of a rifle barrel conducive to
repeatable accuracy and consistancy.  In the process he developed much of our
present day understanding of precision gauging and measurement. (Metal Working
Content!!..OK Robin et. al.?)

The Whitworth Enfield was the Volounteer Rifle of choice and found great favor
amongst the Confederates during the Civil War.  It was the fore runner of many
copies of greater or lesser efficacy, among them, Rifles by Rigby, Alex Henry,
The London Arms Company and others and lead to a greater understanding of the
rifle as a whole.

teenut

OT as usual!

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:17:09 GMT

Ed Peterson wrote:
>
> Ttools@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > I am not familiar with this hex bore rifle, just how was the bore
> > made. It must be a smooth bore. Just when were they first made and
> > what was the original purpose intended like hunting
>
> It had a twisted hexagonal bore. Done initially with tooling or by
> twisting the barrel later I have no idea. (Teenut probably does.) IIRC
> Dixie Arms was once selling a British-built repro of that gun and the
> mold for the bullets but it was Really Expensive.
>
> Some years back, my sister got me a subscription to 'Civil War Times' in
> which I remember reading a debunking of the 'shot the guy at a mile
> away' story. Seems no one knows where, when, and what units were
> involved in this incident at least from what the writer could glean from
> research so he deemed it unfounded. (an urban military legend?) There
> was more to it but I can't remember anything more.

NOT an urban legend..but a true story.  Took place at Chickamauga Battlefield in
Tennessee.

While undoubtedly the Confederate Sharpshooter was a master of his craft...just
to place his bullet within the circle of probability occupied by the Generals
head at that precise moment..it is equally certain that, given the probable
effective size of the rifle's "Grouping" capability at that range (About
30")..He surely was a very unlucky General on that day!

Lucky shot?  The harder I practice..The luckier I get!

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:10:40 GMT

jkessler wrote:

> Hello group,
>         I read these posts about black powder, Whitworths,long shots,
> and think most of the group still hasn't got a clue as to what
> you guys are talking about.  Maybe a little background info will
> help.
>      Black powder, compared to modern nitrocellulose (smokeless), burns slow,
> doesn't produce much chamber pressure and is very dirty.  Black powder may
> only produce about 12,000 lbs of pressure while smokeless produces higher
> than 35,000 lbs. in some loadings.

Try 28 to 40,000 psi for BP and 65000 plus with nitro.



> And since BP is always packed tightly
> (smokeless is often loose) in the chamber, the only way to get more
> pressure is to add more powder. BTW, pressure effects velocity.

Doubling the bullet weight will SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE PRESSURES.


Having said that..Good post!

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:25:36 GMT

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:


>         Somewhere later in the thread, I saw a mention of one twist in
> 1".  I *hope* that was one twist in 1' (foot, not inch), or the spin
> would be rather extreme.

It was indeed one turn in one INCH!!

Whitworth did it to prove a point..That a properly fitted hex bolt would NOT jam
in a hex bore..regardless of how tight the twist was.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:17:30 GMT

Gary Coffman wrote:

> With a muzzleloader, you swage the bullet to shape as you load it. (Or
> in the case of paper patched bullets, you swage the paper to shape as
> you load it, leaving the bullet a nice clean cylinder.)

Not quite so Gary.  In the whitworth system, the bullet was made hexagonal too
and mechanicaly fit the bore.  The original A/F dimension was such that, after
applying a paper patch of the correct thickness, the bullet was a nice SLIDING
fit in the bore.  Upsetting took place on fireing as the base accelerated faster
than the nose so that a tight gas seal was achieved.  (Early Whitworth,
hexagonal bullets had a hollow base..like a minie bullet..which was filled with
a papier mache plug.

Later it was discovered that the hex shape wasn't needed..a bore riding,
cylindrical bullet would upset just as well to fill the hex bore.

At no time were the bullets "swaged into the rifling" during loading..that would
have lead to difficult (Impossible) ramming and deformation of both the nose and
the base of the bullet.

Maybe you are thinking about the "Mini-Balls" (not Minie) supplied for use in
modern cap and ball replicas...Thompson-Center for example. These do indeed have
a groove sized, narrow band above the bore sized base..the objective here being
to "Engrave the rifling" on loading..might also act as a scraper to push soft,
light fouling down the bore during loading.  I would imagine that after a very
few shots with less than perfect black powder, loading would become VERY
difficult.   These Mini-balls are only just over bore diameter in length..to
suit the much slower twist of a patched ball rifle..they are grease grooved and
NEVER used with a paper patch. The pre-engrave ring is not sufficient to give a
tight gas seal though..this occurs via "upsetting" of the solid base on firing.


> Now sonic velocity is another factor of interest to bullet behavior. It isn't
> directly related to cross wind behavior, though again everything is interrelated
> in one way or another. At ranges beyond 1000 yards, the bullets of nearly all
> commonly used rifles will have become subsonic. You notice this in the target
> pits at Camp Perry. Subsonic bullets don't have the "crack" sonic boom sound
> as they pass overhead. Only those bullets in the 180 and 200 grain weights
> loaded to a muzzle velocity in  excess of 3000 fps in .30 cal, will still have a
> "crack" as they reach the 1000 yard target. Even then, they'd better be low
> drag bullets. AFAIK at 1800 yards, no common cartridge short of a .50 BMG
> will still produce that "crack".

Caliber .50 M1 ball remaining velocity at 1800 yards = 721 fps..still packing a
helluva wallop though..5397 ft pounds!

It is during the transition from super to sub sonic velocity that the greatest
disturbance occurs..and this is effects small bullets far more than big ones.

Figures from "Hatcher's Notebook"

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:19:29 GMT

Gary Coffman wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:25:36 GMT, Robert Bastow
> <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com> wrote:
> >"DoN. Nichols" wrote:
> >>         Somewhere later in the thread, I saw a mention of one twist in
> >> 1".  I *hope* that was one twist in 1' (foot, not inch), or the spin
> >> would be rather extreme.
> >
> >It was indeed one turn in one INCH!!
> >
> >Whitworth did it to prove a point..That a properly fitted hex bolt would NOT jam
> >in a hex bore..regardless of how tight the twist was.
>
> That *isn't* the twist of the Whitworth rifle used for the sniper shot we've
> been discussing, though. That had a more normal twist.

About 1 in 22" was the Whitworth standard twist.

teenut

From: Robert Bastow <teenut@Nospamhotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Subject: Re: Black Powder Experts
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:01:38 GMT

jkessler wrote:

> Hello group,
>    You are right on both counts, Robert.  I was just trying to make a general
> comparison between BP and smokeless pressure curves, and to highlight the
> solutions our ancestors developed to solve the inherent problems they
> encountered with BP.  Getting a large, heavy ROUND ball to engege enough
> rifling to spin and stabilize was one of those problems.  So was trying to
> increase pressures with a round bullet.  After conical bullets came into
> widespread use around the time of the Civil War, it got easier to do
> because you could indeed just make the bullet longer in the SAME sized
> caliber, whose increased weight WOULD raise pressures.  The hexagonal
> barrel unsuccessfully addressed these issues.  jk

The Whitworth Hexagonal bore was, in fact, VERY successful in it's era..Sought
after by Confederate sharp shooters, rifle teams, and the British Volunteer
movement (para-military "Weekend Warriors of the day) It not only, for the first
time, placed an accurate, consistant and easily loaded rifle in their hands for
the very first time..But it also opened up the whole era to
experimentation..most of it in vain attempts to BETTER the Whitworth Rifle.

Some succeeded, it is true.  Legendary names like Rigby, Alex Henry and
Gibbs-Metford spring to mind.  But the Whitworth was a quantum leap forward in
military rifle development,  akin to the Gatling gun or the Phoenix Missile.

Today, whitworth type rifles ar STILL in demand and production..the best being
the Parker Hale Volunteer Rifle..even though the hexagonal bore has been
bettered by several other systems.  I would love to own and shoot the pristine
LAC Whitworth Volunteer rifle that gave me so much satisfaction during my long
range shooting days.

teenut