From: REMOVE_THISdwilkins@means.net (Don Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.chem
Subject: Re: Definition: GMW
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:49:31 GMT

On 6 Jan 1999 09:12:04 -0500, moore@onsager.bd.psu.edu (Brian Moore)
wrote:

>In article <36a594ea.21084560@news.wcta.net>,
>Don Wilkins <REMOVE_THISdwilkins@means.net> wrote:
>>
>>Until the school systems get rid of the tenure system they are going
>>to be stuck with some incompetent teachers and can't fire them.
>>
>>Not long ago I asked a long time school board member the following:
>>
>>In the past 20 years how many times has the school board failed to
>>give tenure to a new hire and how many times have you told a teacher
>>to find another job because they were not competent to teach?
>>
>>The answer? Never.
>>
>>My response..... Nobody is that good at hiring.
>
>
>All I know is what I see.   My first-grader is in public school.  Her
>teacher is competent and incredibly dedicated.

 Let me give you some advice which may be worth to you about what you
pay for it.

The facts are that there are some real problems in public education.
IMHO much of this is due to the fact that the teachers are 1),
unionized, 2) populated by all to many who flunked out of pre-med,
pre-dental, etc. and 3) are paid for by public funds.

Now what does some of this have to do with the problem?

When they are unionized (tenure) you can't fire them because they
burned out or are just plain incompetent. Teachers are just like any
other employees. Some are good, some you wish you had never hired but
unfortunately with teachers the latter group continues to collect
their paycheck.

When they have flunked out of their pathway to riches they are mad,
disappointed, angry and not among the best. They grab a few education
courses and turn to teaching pissed at the world.  Public funded
employees just don't have their feet held to the fire. I spent a
career where the only thing between me and the street was doing a
better job than someone they could get to replace me for less money.
The public employee just rarely gets fired.

Now you have a dedicated teacher for your first grader. That is great
but your first grader has 11 more years to go and depending on the
character of your first grader there are some incompetents down the
trail who can destroy your kid's enthusiasm. If you are counting on
all of those teachers down her educational path to be knowledgable,
dedicated teachers then you are going to have some serious
disappointments.

I learned this lesson when my oldest went into third grade. She got a
paranoid bitch who should have been fired years ago. My daughter
survived but I had a long hard discussion with the grade school
principal about this bitch.

He told me he knew she shouldn't be teaching but there was no way he
could fire her. The advice he gave me was priceless. He said that once
my child had been assigned to a teacher's class it was almost
impossible to make a change BUT if I came in before class assignments
were made I could request a particular teacher for that grade for my
child. At the end of every school year he and I had a discussion about
which class my kids would move to next year.

Well from then on it was an entirely different ball game. My kids were
placed in classes where I made the decision based on my assessment of
the character of the teachers available and the abilities and
personality of my children. My children got dedicated teachers but it
wasn't a result of potluck. Now when that principle is assigning kids
to classes he has two types of parents to contend with. One never
shows up for anything and the other is there discussing with him the
various teachers and the education of their child. Which ones do you
think get assigned to the incompetent teachers?

The results? That daughter is now an executive level attorney for a
major corporation. The next has a Ph. D. in chemistry and works for a
major corporation. The last runs the trading desk for an international
stock trading concern. All three are college graduates.

You take potluck with that first grader of yours and you have eleven
more chances where something like a flip of the coin  could be a
disaster for your daughter

>
>And types like you have nothing but condescension and insults for
>her.

Would you please tell me where in my posting I presented insults  to
your daughter.

As I recall you were the one who got on Uncle Als case for insulting
people and you have done nothing but that since. Not so?

After I originally wrote this I decided not to post it because you
were doing nothing but insulting everyone who had an opinion on this.
Long ago I learned not to get into a pissing contest with a skunk.

I had second thoughts because maybe my experience in dealing with the
system might help someone who is just starting down the path to
educate their kids. There is a way to beat the system but it takes
some effort. Now having pointed out the problems I hasten to add that
there are some excellent dedicated teachers in the system but there is
a problem in sorting the wheat from the chaff. That is your job
because nobody is going to do it for you and the stakes are very high.

If I hadn't found dedicated teachers I would have placed the kids in
private school where those who don't teach get placed out on the
street.

Do I believe it will be of any help to you? Absolutely not.

>
>It stinks.

Yes it does and the solution to the problem is not to fling insults at
people who perhaps have had more time to deal with that problem than
you have had.


  _               _   _                  Für d' Flöh gibts a Pulver
 (_|   |   |_/o  | | | |  o              für d' Schuah gibts a Wix,
   |   |   |     | | | |      _  _    ,   für'n Durst gibts a Wasser
   |   |   |  |  |/  |/_) |  / |/ |  / \_  bloss fuer d' Dummheit gibts nix.
    \_/ \_/   |_/|__/| \_/|_/  |  |_/ \/

From: REMOVE_THISdwilkins@means.net (Don Wilkins)
Newsgroups: sci.chem
Subject: Re: Definition: GMW
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:55:47 GMT

I also don't want to get into the politics of home schooling but agree
with Uncle Al to the extent that teaching chemistry should be left to
those with at least a rudimentary knowledge of the subject.

This guy didn't even have the correct formula for potassium chlorate.
something that apparently went unnoticed by previous posters.



<some ranting and raving deleted>
>
>I see this also in the local rightwingers in our school board.  They
>are not interested in discussing the substance of the issues, they
>just want to rant and rave about how messed up, vile and inhuman
>the teachers are.

Until the teachers behave like professionals they are not going to get
much respect. Particularly when they turn out a product that still
can't read or do simple math after twelve years of training.

Until the school systems get rid of the tenure system they are going
to be stuck with some incompetent teachers and can't fire them.

Not long ago I asked a long time school board member the following:

In the past 20 years how many times has the school board failed to
give tenure to a new hire and how many times have you told a teacher
to find another job because they were not competent to teach?

The answer? Never.

My response..... Nobody is that good at hiring.