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From: David Lednicer <>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: U.S. Parts In Chinese Weapons
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:37:31 +0100

This article contains numerous and rather critical errors!

> The Chengdu plant produces the J-5, JJ-5 and J-7 supersonic jet
> fighters, copies of the MiG-21, (NATO Codename "Fishbed").  The
> Shengyang plant produces the the J-6 fighter, a reversed
> engineered version of the MiG-29 (NATO Codename "Fulcrum").

	NO!  The J-6 is a reversed engineered MiG-19, which is of ancient
vintage (early 1950s).  Latest rumors are that the J-6 has been out of
production at Chengdu for at least 10 years!

	The MiG-21 copies are also of an ancient vintage airplane.  The MiG-21
was designed in the late 1950s.  The PLAAF is widely known to be
equipped with ancient aircraft.  Only the recently purchased Su-27s
constitute any sort of threat.

> Yet, Chengdu and Shengyang also turn a profit making U.S. aircraft
> parts.  Chengdu makes the nose sections of the McDonnell/Douglas
> MD-80 and MD-90 civilian jet liner.  Shengyang makes components
> for the Boeing 757, Airbus A320 and even the Lockheed Martin
> C-130 Hercules!

	Who cares?  These parts are all built to print, with no design work
done in China.  How can they learn to design fighters by building
airliner tail assemblies, doors, etc.???

> The irony of a front line US combat aircraft having parts made in
> China is over shadowed by the fact that profits from those parts are
> used to proliferate copies of the advanced MiG-29 Fulcrum jet fighter
> to Iran, Pakistan and Iraq.

	So?  Most of the Titanium sponge used in forming the material the SR-71
was built from, came from the USSR!  Additionally, the aircraft sold to
Iran, Pakistan and Iraq were J-6s, copies of the MiG-19, not MiG-29.

> Nanchang is China's main producer of advanced warplanes and
> missiles capable of nuclear or chemical attack.  For example,
> Nanchang has produced over 1,000 advanced Q-5/A-5 jet fighter
> bombers.

	The Q-5/A-5 is a modified version of the J-6 (the MiG-19 copy).  It is
hardly advanced technology.  The fighters that the US uses as targets in
training are younger than the J-6 and Q-5/A-5 design!  Additionally,
most PLAAF aircraft are very short range aircraft, which makes it
difficult to conduct a nuclear attack!  A Cessna 150 could be used for
chemical attack.

> The five axis, stretch press is reported to be making China's
> F-10 copy of the Russian Sukhoi SU-27 (Nato Codename "FLANKER")
> jet fighter.  The PLAAF is already flying fifty Russian built
> Su-27s.  In fact, many of the Russian supplied SU-27s flew
> during the 1996 Chinese wargames just off the Taiwan coast.
> Nanchang has since supplied another eighty F-10 copies of the
> Flanker and is in the process of building at least four hundred
> more.

	The F-10 is NOT a copy of the Su-27.  It is an all new fighter, with
some technology from the IAI Lavi mixed in.  The prototype F-10 just
flew, so they could hardly have 80 in service.  The Chinese have a
license to produce Su-27s, but none has been built yet.  Lets face it,
the PLAAF is equipped with elderly aircraft, except for the Su-27s.

> Nanchang also produces the FL-1, FL-2, FL-3A and the
> popular C.802 anti-ship cruise missiles, exported to Iran.
> The C.802 is popular because it too is a money maker for China.
> Photos of five new Chinese built Houdong class patrol boats,
> armed with C.802 missiles, being transferred to Iran were
> published in the US Naval Institute's PROCEEDINGS in February
> 1997.  The five patrol boats were in Gulf waters, just outside
> an Iranian Naval base, on the deck of the Chinese freighter
> Guang Zhou (1501) as it sailed into gulf waters.  Please note -
> the MV Guang Zhou is not a Chinese military vessel but a
> commercial vessel owned by COSCO (China Ocean Shipping Company).

	These missiles, Silkworm derivatives, are based upon the Soviet Styx
missile.  This is an old design, dating back to the 1960s.  The Israelis
lost the destroyer Eliat to Styx missiles in 1967 and developed
effective countermeasures to it.  During the 1973 war, they had many
Styx fired at their missile boats and none hit.

> The missile was mislabeled as machine parts by the shipping
> company, China National Electronics Import Export Company.
> CNEIEC is also wholly owned by Generals of the PLA.  The missile
> was discovered by Singapore officials who inspected the
> Dragonair L-1011 by accident.  U.S. intelligence officials stated
> openly in Aviation Week and Space Technology that they suspect
> the missile was to be covertly upgraded in Israel using stolen
> US Sidewinder technology.

	Israeli air-air missile technology was originally developed because the
US refused to sell Sidewinders to them in the early 1960s.  Rafael
finally got a look at a Sidewinder in 1969, after the Shafrir II was in
production and in service.  The Python 3 and 4 were developed by Rafael
on their own.  They are far superior to the Sidewinder and probably
contain minimal Sidewinder technology.  The Archer is also far superior
to any Sidewinder.  The USAF and USN are in a crash program to develop a
new missile of the same caliber as the Python 4 and Archer.  The
Israelis had probably bought the Archer to take a look at it.

David Lednicer             | "Applied Computational Fluid Dynamics"
Analytical Methods, Inc.   |   email:
2133 152nd Ave NE          |   tel:     (206) 643-9090
Redmond, WA  98052  USA    |   fax:     (206) 746-1299

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