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From: Mary Shafer <>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military.naval,rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Loose lips sink ships
Date: 14 Jul 1998 11:33:19 -0700

PcFlyer <> writes:

> Anyone care to comment on the possibility that the current flow of PC
> Combat Simulators might possibly jeopardize security  in that these
> games include detailed avionics, weapons, radar, MFD's, and flight
> modeling.  I realize Jane's prints various books detailing many things I
> have just mentioned, but I am thinking in terms of the old saying "Loose
> lips sink ships", which I have been told came from a story that back in
> WW2, the US subs were escaping the Japanese depth charges until someone
> back in the states made the comment (to whom and where I do not know)
> that the reason our subs were slipping away from unscathed was because
> the enemy didn't have their depth charges set deep enough...
> So with this in mind, I am curious as to why the military has allowed
> this information to be made public?

All of those games use generic math models for the vehicle dynamics,
dress up nominal weapons and equipment models with a few specific
details taken from various articles, and generate graphics from images
culled from the manufacturer's press releases.

For example, one of our research test pilots claims that several
PC-based combat simulators use exactly the same math model for their
aircraft and that the model is not representative of the F-15, F-16,
or F-18, all of which he flies, although they're vaguely fighter-like.
He did a quickie check, putting in standard S&C inputs and frequency
sweeps, as well as trying some standard maneuvers.  He claimed that
the dynamic responses were essentially identical.  He was equally
critical of the performance of the avionics, weapons systems, and

I looked at one such sim and noticed that the FCS did not work at all
the way it should for that particular airplane.  They had the rolling
tail messed up, as I recall.  If I hadn't been looking for it, though,
I would never have noticed.

I don't think this is a serious concern.

Wasn't "Loose lips sink ships" from WW I to begin with?

Mary Shafer               NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, CA
SR-71 Flying Qualities Lead Engineer     Of course I don't speak for NASA                               DoD #362 KotFR
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