Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
From: thomsona@netcom.com (Allen Thomson)
Subject: Re: 350 Export Violations by Boeing
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:09:20 GMT

In article <spqLJHi00WB60xEFgb@andrew.cmu.edu> Jacob McGuire <mcguire+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.sci.space.policy: 17-Aug-98 Re: 350 Export
>Violations b.. by "Michael P. Walsh"@pacbe
>>> venture. "What you have is a U.S. company bringing Russian
>>> ICBMs into a U.S. port without a license," one official said. "This is
>>> totally unprecedented."
>
>  The American Spectator claims that the Zenit is a "larger version" of
>the SS-18.  This is untrue.

Correct. This mistake appeared in the original Washington Post article
but was never, AFAIK, corrected. Presumably the Spectator picked it
up from there.

>The SS-18 is the ICBM version of the Cyclone booster,

Not exactly. The Cyclone is the SLV version of the SS-9, and the SS-18
is the follow-on ICBM to the SS-9, with a lot of design and technology
commonality.

>and has no relation to the Zenit.

Correct from the design and technology standpoint, though they both
come out of NPO Yuzhnoye in Dnepropetrovsk. Zenit is a purpose-designed
space launch vehicle using LOX/kerosine in all stages, while the Cyclone
uses N2O4/hydrazine.

>Calling these ICBM's is a big stretch.

Come now, let's not get hung up on petit-bourgeois notions of the truth.
There are larger principles at stake here.

[snip]

Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
From: thomsona@netcom.com (Allen Thomson)
Subject: Re: 350 Export Violations by Boeing
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:19:00 GMT

In article <gpqNDb_00WB68xEKBg@andrew.cmu.edu> Jacob McGuire <mcguire+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Excerpts from netnews.sci.space.policy: 18-Aug-98 Re: 350 Export
>Violations b.. by Allen Thomson@netcom.com
>> >and has no relation to the Zenit.
>>
>> Correct from the design and technology standpoint, though they both
>> come out of NPO Yuzhnoye in Dnepropetrovsk. Zenit is a purpose-designed
>> space launch vehicle using LOX/kerosine in all stages, while the Cyclone
>> uses N2O4/hydrazine.
>
>  Mark Wade's Encyclopedia of Spacflight has interesting information on
>the history of these Russian rockets.  First we have the
>SS-9/SS-18/Cyclone family, designed by Yangel (possibly built by someone
>else).  Yangel also designed the R-46, which was a really big ICBM in
>competition with our friend the UR-500 (better known as Proton).  The
>Proton won the competition way back in the sixties, and the R-46 sat
>around for a while before evolving into the Zenit.
>
>  Regardless, the idea that all of this is motivated by a competitor of
>Boeing pulling strings would certainly explain the sudden appearance of
>problems and the not-very-good reasoning behind the Customs decision.

I think the jury is still out on that -- it could equally well be
some not very clued in bureaucrats scrambling to avoid another
embarrassment like the China/Loral thing.  One does wonder, though,
why no one in the gummint checked to see if Sea Launch was submitting
the right forms a couple of years ago. It's hardly as if the shipping
of the Zenit(s?) to California was handled as a covert operation.

But speaking of LockMart and Lockheed/Khrunichev, may one suppose
that LM is scrupulous in doing the paperwork when arranging for
Proton launches?

Newsgroups: sci.space.shuttle
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Euro War
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:28:11 GMT

In article <7du7cq$lpt$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,  <wmook@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Typically programs such as ISS have been used to understand and even
>penetrate technical capacities of our potential enemies.  SeaLaunch for
>example uses the automated loading and firing capabilities of the Xenit
>missile...

Uh, despite persistent rumors, as far as I know there has never been any
actual *evidence* that Zenit is anything but a space launcher.  Notably,
as I understand it, nothing like it has ever been tested as a ballistic
missile.  This seems to be pure paranoia without any foundation in fact.

>...A collection of Xenit missiles hidden
>throughout Russia form a deadman's switch type response...

With liquid-oxygen plants chugging away beside the hidden silos?  (Zenit
is a LOX/kerosene rocket, *not* what a modern ICBM designer would choose,
especially for a system meant to remain hidden.)
--
The good old days                   |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
weren't.                            |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)