From: Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.toronto.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.space.tech
Subject: Re: space architecture?
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 00:34:29 GMT

In article <4jrlug$6ot@knot.queensu.ca> 3cdk2@qlink.queensu.ca (Kossowski Craig D) writes:

>...Architecture does have a lot of aspects of 
>engineering, and has considerable professional knowledge associated with 
>it.  It may well be the case that architecture firms produce esthetics, 
>but this is in addition to the engineering type work.

Well, one should be a little bit cautious here.  Architects are *supposed*
to do a competent job on the engineering side.  However, their training is
often a little weak on this, and their practice is often seriously weak on
it.  (For example, on average they are notoriously uninterested in whether
the roof leaks.)

A friend of mine used to work for a consulting-engineering group whose
specialty was catching architects' engineering botches before they got
(literally) cast in concrete.  You don't build a business on checking
other people's work if that work is usually competently done.
-- 
Americans proved to be more bureaucratic           |       Henry Spencer
than I ever thought.  --Valery Ryumin, RKK Energia |   henry@zoo.toronto.edu

From: Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.toronto.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.space.tech
Subject: Re: space architecture?
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:56:26 GMT

In article <4kddrg$5h0@hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk> "Theodore W. Hall" <twhall@cuhk.edu.hk> writes:
>> Architects are *supposed* to do a competent job on the engineering
>> side.  However, their training is often a little weak on this, and
>> their practice is often seriously weak on it.  (For example, on
>> average they are notoriously uninterested in whether the roof
>> leaks.)
>
>Nonsense.  "Often"?  "On average"?  Cite your evidence...

How about some evidence that they *are* concerned?  I see you're in a
school of architecture -- how many courses does it teach on techniques
of post-occupancy evaluation?  (That's the buzzword for "finding out
whether the building really worked as intended".)  Does it teach the
topic at all?  If so, that's unusual.

For example, does that school teach building flat roofs?  From "The
Occupier's View" (Vail Williams, 1990):  "Flat roofs always leak...  [Even
those few occupiers] who had expressed a preference for modern glass boxes
seemed to be resigned to the fact that part of the price of a modern
bulding with a flat roof was the likelihood (or virtual certainty) of roof
leaks."  Given architects' observable preference for flat roofs in most
large buildings, this sounds like "notoriously uninterested" to me. 

>...This is like
>saying that engineers are "notoriously uninterested" in whether
>propellant valves leak, satellites explode, tape recorders jam, or
>antennas fail to deploy.  The NASA-bashers seem to believe that's the
>case, but we know better, don't we?

Indeed so.  But engineers get paid to build things that work, while
the rewards for architects tend to be based on aesthetics rather than
engineering.  In such a context, it is not surprising that both the
architecture schools and the architects themselves lack interest in
practical details, which may produce better buildings but don't win
prizes or attract new clients.

>> A friend of mine used to work for a consulting-engineering group
>> whose specialty was catching architects' engineering botches before
>> they got (literally) cast in concrete.  You don't build a business
>> on checking other people's work if that work is usually competently
>> done.
>
>Does he describe his consulting role in such adversarial terms, or
>is that your interpretation.  In any case, it's an unfortunate
>misunderstanding.

While I can't vouch for my friend's *exact* words -- it's been a while --
my rendition of them above is pretty close.  He had truly hair-raising
stories to tell.  Undoubtedly those were the worst cases rather than the
typical ones, but it's still revealing.
-- 
Americans proved to be more bureaucratic           |       Henry Spencer
than I ever thought.  --Valery Ryumin, RKK Energia |   henry@zoo.toronto.edu