Newsgroups: alt.movies,sci.space.policy
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) ...
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:56:33 GMT

In article <389EDF08.15A43204@ix.netcom.com>,
Helen & Bob  <chil-out@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> I'm afraid I have to agree with Alexei Panshin on this one.  Starship
>> Troopers is a prose version of a recruiting film...
>
>1.  I own a copy of "Heinlein in Dimension", and I found, to my surprise, some
>hostility to RAH in the book.  That is IMHO.

I'm not sure I'd call it hostility, but there's certainly an edge to it
now and then, and I certainly don't agree with all of Panshin's opinions.
However, I think he got this one dead center.

>...I could not disagree with you more about Rico
>being a "carefully chosen typical soldier", at least, as typical soldiers were
>from my experience '59 - '60...

Note that I said "Typical Soldier", not "typical soldier".  He's an
*official* typical soldier, not a real one, in the same way that "pravda"
means "official truth".  He screws up a little, but never badly, and gets
straightened out by wise senior officers.  He has doubts only during his
days in training, and gets over them.  He's never treated unfairly, never
has a close friend hurt or killed on camera (in fact, it's not clear that
he has any real friends in his own unit, although the "buddy" relationship
is very important in real military forces), rises steadily through the
ranks with delays caused only by unusual external circumstances, and keeps
running into the same people along the way.  He's a Norman Rockwell
painting of a soldier, with about as much personality.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: alt.movies,sci.space.policy
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) Re: Yours, Mine or Ours: Who 
	, Owns the Moon?
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 04:24:34 GMT

In article <L9BY9tzSDwrQ-pn2-Zhdp1u8FSCk9@localhost>,
Karel Jansens <jansens_at_ibm_dot_net> wrote:
>This only shows that Heinlein was actually too great a writer for his
>own good - and that you don't understand d*ck about him. Heinlein's
>books are all interconnected; he was the master of Tomorrow's History.

Uh, no.  While he in fact originated the idea of a "future history" -- he
was the first to openly organize his work in this way -- it's a vast
exaggeration to say that all his books are interconnected.

Even the work that was nominally part of his "future history" -- mostly
short fiction published in his early days writing for the SF magazines,
especially Astounding -- is not entirely consistent.  Occasionally there
are fumblings to attempt to explain why a major element of society in one
story has no effect on other stories in the same history.  (Nobody *ever*
took Pinero's well-documented accomplishments seriously enough to do real
research into the topic?)

More significantly, though, a lot of the stories from his middle years,
notably the Scribner's juveniles, at first *look* like they're set on a
common background, but in fact aren't.  The backgrounds and events are not
really consistent, each being custom-cooked for a particular story.  Here
and there are what look like connections, but they simply do not fit when
examined closely.

Yes, in some of the worst hackwork of his declining years, he did attempt
to smush everything together into one uber-universe.  I prefer to forget
that embarrassing garbage.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,alt.movies
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) ...
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 05:08:41 GMT

In article <389CF932.E24F921E@ix.netcom.com>,
Helen & Bob  <chil-out@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Indeed, it was originally written as the next in his series of juvenile
>> novels, published by Scribner's.  Unsurprisingly, Scribner's found it
>> completely unsuitable and the series terminated then and there.
>
>Actually ... you will find that RAH had been having
>problems with editor assigned him for years.

This is no secret.  While she undoubtedly was a headache to him and a
detriment to the books in some ways, it's reasonably clear from some of
the material that has since surfaced -- notably the uncut version of Red
Planet -- that she did us more of a favor than we knew.  The erratic
decline in the quality of Heinlein's work which started around the time of
Starship Troopers had a lot to do with him acquiring enough clout to
override the editors.

(Grumbles From The Grave, in particular, does shed some light on the
difficulties he had with the Scribner's editor.  Unfortunately, the added
light does not show Heinlein very favorably in general.  I'm amazed that
his widow permitted that book to be published.)

>...The book was
>released with a new publisher, hit the best seller lists, was awarded the HUGO
>award as the best Science Fiction novel of the year ... and still
>sells well ...

I'm not denying that it's entertaining -- although I'm not as fond of it
as I used to be -- but there is no question that it is *not* a juvenile.
It's so utterly different from Heinlein's juveniles that one has to wonder
whether it was planned as a deliberate breach of contract.

>...Based on history, your comment of "unsurprisingly unsuitable" is
>rather humorous.

Starship Troopers has gone through many editions, but I don't believe it
has ever, anywhere, on any occasion, been published as a juvenile.
*Nobody*, then or now, thinks it is suitable for that market.  And that
was what Scribner's was buying, and what Heinlein had contracted to
deliver.  "Unsurprisingly unsuitable" is accurate.

>I notice you post to sci.space.policy.  I was in the manned spaceflight
>business for 15 years.  If you have the opportunity to ever talk to some of
>the scientists involve, ask them about Heinliens influence.

And while you're at it, ask them *which books* were influential.  Betcha
the juveniles are near the top of the list -- deservedly so -- and
Starship Troopers isn't.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: us.politics,sci.space.policy,talk.politics.guns,sci.astro
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Right to Bear Arms on the Moon?) Re: Yours, Mine or Ours: Who    
	Owns   , the Moon?
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:22:55 GMT

In article <j8qm4.323$lK6.8921@iad-read.news.verio.net>,
Scout <scout@monumental.com> wrote:
>> That's fine for the first generation, but doesn't work when -- as Heinlein
>> carefully established -- most of the inhabitants are *not* transportees
>> but the descendants of same.  The descendants ought to be roughly 50-50...
>
>Well in the book, the ratio was nearly 50/50...

Uh, no, it was still worse than 2:1.  Somehow.  With a large majority of
the population second- or third-generation.  (See the part where he's
explaining the facts of lunar life to Stu LaJoie.)

>> Also, as I alluded to earlier, historically, when women are scarce, they
>> do *not* call the shots.  Quite the contrary:  they become slaves...
>
>In this I would tend to agree, his projection is unlikely, but there IS the
>remote possiblity, particularly when you consider how easy it would be to
>kill someone even the harsh enviroment...

What happens in such environments is:  gangs.  Maybe it's easy to kill a
member of the James Gang, but then they *all* come to kill you.  A few
such examples and people learn that you don't mess with them... no matter
how rude, obnoxious, and violent they are.  And also, people learn that
the way to be safe against random murder is to join the James Gang.

In an environment completely devoid of organization and safety, people
don't become polite, self-reliant individualists.  They *make*
organization and safety for themselves, forming into gangs around leaders.
This happens even if officialdom is attempting to suppress it.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: alt.movies,sci.space.policy
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) ...
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:53:33 GMT

In article <38A51888.B8D3A8BB@gnelson.demon.co.uk>,
Graham Nelson  <graham@gnelson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Sorry, but right in the opening chapters he is shown killing the
>> 'Skinnies'...  A different humanoid race....
>
>Whom he scares but does not kill.

Read it again; he kills people both retail and wholesale (tactical nuclear
weapons!) during that sequence.

>His orders are to jump about ... and bomb all the buildings he can, but
>kill as few civilians as possible...

Correct, but like any sensible soldier, his first priority is survival and
he's not too worried about collateral damage.  He's not going out of his
way to kill civilians, but he isn't making any great effort to minimize
deaths either.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: alt.movies,sci.space.policy
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) ...
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:29:39 GMT

In article <1e5t3p7.14ztj5k1txhh4aN@ppp323.wcta.net>,
David Buchner <buchner@wcta.net> wrote:
>Heinlein is explaining that what he wrote is really more of an adult
>novel: "....I have followed my own theory that intelligent youngsters
>are in fact more interested in weighty matters than their parents
>usually are." (!)

Actually, Heinlein had a pretty good formula for writing juvenile novels:
write an adult novel, except (a) a bit simpler, (b) tone down the sex, and
(c) make the hero fairly young.  This produces excellent juveniles which
are also readable to adults.  (I think it was Heinlein who said that a
book which insults the intelligence of adults probably insults the
intelligence of the kids too.)

Certainly, though, ST is very different from his previous juveniles, and
it's not a change along any of those three axes.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)

Newsgroups: sci.space.policy,alt.movies
From: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: (Starship Troopers and poor editing) ...
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:12:11 GMT

In article <aranders-0902000729050001@ip206-104-203.netusa1.net>,
Alan Anderson <aranders@netusa1.net> wrote:
>> > "Stranger..." is an interesting book in many ways, but...
>> > ...what Henry rightly calls the erratic decline in Heinlein's work ...
>> No, not at all.  SIASL was his biggest success...
>> ...and generally was the BIG hit book among the youth of the country in
>> the late 60's.  That, sir, is not a decline.
>
>The purported decline was in the quality of Heinlein's work, not in its
>popularity.

Also, Stranger was published in 1961 -- less than halfway through
Heinlein's writing career! -- and much of it was written still earlier.
Stranger and Starship Troopers were only the beginnings of the downslope.

And note the word "erratic"; he did still occasionally produce fine work,
especially early on.  Despite some gaping logic flaws, The Moon Is A Harsh
Mistress is good stuff, possibly my favorite of all his books.
--
The space program reminds me        |  Henry Spencer   henry@spsystems.net
of a government agency.  -Jim Baen  |      (aka henry@zoo.toronto.edu)