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Date:	Sat, 17 Feb 90 19:44:00 EST
Subject: Toyota Masters

Well, my locksmithing message spurred alot of questions about the Toyota
master keys.

The first I heard of one was from a friend who had his auto reposessed.  
He had to go pay the due amount (and likly a penelty) before his truck would
be released to him, otherwise it would be sold.

Apparently, some to the follong extent happened:

An employee of the yard was sent to get get the truck out of the yard since
only employees were allowed in the impound yard.  Since they took the truck,
they didn't have a legitimate set of keys for it, and he used a "master" to
start it up and drive it around to the front to be returned.

I'm not entirly sure if they left the key in the truck or what happened,however
he ended up with a master that has only shallow cuts all the same depth across
the cut face.  It is almost flat accross the cut face.  I suspect a blank
would work just as well, or a blank with about 1/32 so shaved off since the
key has minimal cuts at the tumbler positions, and the peaks between them.

They may have changed this recently (I think his truck is an 88), I'm not
sure.  I know that here in San Diego, Law Enforcement will often ask to see
your Ignition/Door key when your driveing a Toyota they suspect might be stolen
or just to check.  I know this for a fact, and heard it directly from a
San Diego County Sherrif.

How about this as a subject for Risks?  A key that will open and start most
Toyotas doesn't make it hard to steal one, and here anyway, they are near the
top of the list.

Date:	Fri, 9 Mar 90 04:43:00 EST
Subject: Re: Toyota Masters

  the same goes for most older datsun/nissan cars and trucks.  you can make
a key that will open/start a majority of the cars out there.  i think it's
mostly a combination of bad design and sloppy tolerances rather than anything 
toyota/nissan intended to do.  there was an article in the national
locksmith or locksmith ledger a while back about this 'problem'.  the 
locks are so bad that i can use my friends toyota key to get into and
start some nissans even though it's the wrong blank and just a regular key...


Date:	Fri, 9 Mar 90 07:18:00 EST
From:	Christopher Gene Behanna <>
Subject: Honda motorcycle keys

   Recently, a friend of mine bought a 1983 Honda Shadow 750.  He tried his
key in my 1985 Honda Shadow 700, and was able to unlock the forks as well as
turn on the ignition circuit.  Ditto my key in his bike.  For laughs, we tried
our keys on his roommate's 1983 Honda CB1000, and we were both able to turn
the parking light on (we couldn't turn the cylinder the rest of the way to
"on").  Now, what I want to know is, does Honda consider this a feature or a
bug?  IMHO, selling a bike that any owner of a similar bike can come along and
steal (for parts or otherwise), is a great act of irresponsibility on the part
of the manufacturer.  I'm not terribly worried--I have an enormous folding
steel lock that I use on my front wheel, but folks
who don't have an extra $50 lying around to buy a similar lock SHOULD worry.
Chris BeHanna

Date:	Fri, 9 Mar 90 08:32:00 EST
From:	"chaz_heritage.WGC1RX"
Subject: Them Locks Are Easy

Ford locks have long been notorious for this sort of thing (hence the line
above from Alexei Sayle's song). My kid brother once went to a rock
festival where he was able to open and start seven Fords using the fish
descaler on his Swiss knife (the owners were suitably surprised on waking
to find their cars apparently eager to depart before the main event).

Moaning at car manufacturers for providing rotten security is unlikely to
succeed. They make so much money selling people parts to replace things
smashed by thieves that it's hardly worth their while improving matters.
And, if someone's whole car goes AWOL, well, that's another new car sale
for them, isn't it? Better to rely on one's own (preferably vicious and
devious) ingenuity. I have some ideas, if anyone's interested, since I'm
currently building a new car. Expensive electronic gadgets aren't
necessarily the answer. Mechanical solutions seem to be the best.



Date:	Sat, 10 Mar 90 00:45:00 EST
From:	"Court_K_Packer.wbst845"

I'm told by a friend that ignition keys can be made for Volvos and Saabs by
just having the last three digits of the VIN number.  If this is true, what
prevents someone from getting the VIN number through the windshield and
going to a dealer and having a key cut?  Would the dealer ask to see some
proof of ownership?

Date:	Sun, 25 Mar 90 10:09:00 EST
From:	trwacs!
Subject: Re: car keys

My wife locked herself out of our Mazda a few weeks ago.  Rather than
calling a locksmith, she called a dealer nearby.  They asked her for
the VIN, made a key, and brought it over (for $5, instead of $50 or
so for a locksmith).

They did not ask for proof of ownership, or anything else, which made
me quite nervous!
Jeremy Epstein
TRW Systems Division

Date:	Wed, 28 Mar 90 00:03:00 EST
Subject: Re:  Honda motorcycle keys

We had a case in our area where two people had
	1) The same model car
	2) The same color
	3) Parked near each other in the same parking lot
	4) Had the same trunk key.

Someone went to the parking lot and dropped off a package in their trunk.
They went back into the Mall, and when they checked their trunk the second
time - they "discovered" that their packages were "stolen".

Bruce G. Barnett	<>  uunet!crdgw1!barnett

Date:	Wed, 28 Mar 90 01:45:00 EST
Subject: Re: Them Locks Are Easy

Well, I'm glad to see I started a conversation that got some response anyway.

My friends motorcycle (Honda) had such high tolorences in the cyclinder and
pin assembly that the core could be turn with a screwdriver if you took a little
time to play with it and jiggle it into line.  If your worried about it,
don't make your car a target, most cars in my area anyway are usally first
taken for goodies inside (tronics), then end up stripped.  It seems if they are
going to go through all the trouble to rip off your stuff, they are going to
get the most out of it.

Pullout stereos, amplifiers in the trunk out of sight and a blinking LED are
all good ideas.  Even if the LED doen't really go to an alarm, it'll keep
alot of lesser hand prints off the car, and with a simple IC LED Flasher, a
single "D" cell can drive it continously for a year.

At all costs, avoid parking on the street, cars are rarely taken out of the 
driveway.  Usally they are taken out of parking lots (around here Apartment
building lots) or off the street.  The best thing (without having a garage)
is to park under a motion detector/flood light assembly.  The action of having
the dark driveway flooded with that 300 watt quartz halogen lamp gets attention,
and I think is more effective than simply having the area continously lit.

Some basic ideas, always, even for a minute, lock the doors with the windows
up.  Many cars have been boosted when someone runs into the 7-11 "just for a
minute."  Roll the windows up tight, most manual windows when rolled tight
will track outwards on most newer cars, making the user of a slimjim (many
new cars still don't use the simple barrier plates and sidebars) have a rough
time even getting it inserted, much les[s using it, as well as making wires and
such very difficult to use to get to the locks.

If anyone really wants your car, they are going to get at it, but you don't
have to help them.

A former investigator for a very large police department's auto theft unit
in the western US.

Date:	Wed, 28 Mar 90 15:45:00 EST
From:	<CJS@cwru.bitnet>
Subject: Car Locks -- They had great locks at Hertz in Belfast

Last time I was in Belfast I rented a car at the airport (I think it was
Hertz).  They car's didn't use regular keys but something that looked, well,
I can't describe it other than to say the key was very strangely shaped.
The reason they go to such trouble with locks is the IRA (and maybe the
provos (I can't recall)) steal cars and put bombs in them and then park them
somewhere.  The security forces will assume any abandoned/stolen car has a
bomb in it--we all know how you defuse a bomb, you blow it up.  So, if any
car is stolen it is effectively totalled.  I suspect it is hard to get the
damn things insured.  Hence the extra security.

I never could find out who made the locks.


Date:	Thu, 29 Mar 90 02:50:00 EST
From:	Alan Zacher <29562883@wsuvm1.bitnet>
Subject: datsun keys

about datusn keys.  be VERY careful about testing your key in other peoples
vehicles of the same make.  people in my family HABITUALLY put the key to our
1980 datsun 210 into the ignition of out 1982 datsun pickup.  the key would
turn until it reached the 'on' position, then it would pop out and would not go
back in.  i had to take the dang lock apart to reset it and it took about 15
times before we got the brains to change the pickup ign. key.  needless to say
we made SURE that the two keys were not semi-interchangeable before we
installed the new cylinder.  just thought id warnya.


Date:	Mon, 16 Apr 1990 20:49:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Them Locks Are Easy

My ISUZU pickup was recently  broken into, and it took me a couple
of days to figure out how it was done.  One day I was washing it especially
well, and noticed a small scrape and gap in between the hard plastic that
surrounds the door handle & lock, and the metal of the door.  Evidently, all
it takes is a long skinny screwdriver to pry in between that plastic cover
and the metal.  Once you've got a little hole, it's just a matter of feeling
around in there with the screwdriver to hit the lever on the back of the door
lock, and pop! it's unlocked!  No more stereo!  (I know, I know, I was gonna
get an alarm as soon as I got a job...)

Many foreign car manufacturers are making their cars & trucks with doors like
that.  The cute little plastic outline around the handle & lock, and all it
takes is a screwdriver.

Double Click Me | Double Click Software | P.O. Box 741206 | Houston, Tx, 77274
Support BBS: (713)944-0108 | SHADOW | DC FORMATTER | DC UTILITIES | and others

Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 1990 17:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: datsun keys

>about datusn keys.  be VERY careful about testing your key in other peoples
>vehicles of the same make.

I'll second this for Honda keys.  My brother accidentally used his 
Honda Civic key to start my Mom's Civic.  The key jammed in the "start"
position, preventing the starter motor from disengaging even though
the engine had started.  The net result was an engine fire!

Luckily we always carry a fire extinguisher and managed to get the
fire out and the key unjammed before any serious damage to the engine
(or us) occurred.  The starter was completely destroyed, of course.

- Mark

Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 1990 17:52:00 -0400
From:	Craig Leres <>
Subject: Re: Honda motorcycle keys

Of all motorcycles made, Harley's must have the simplest ignition locks
of all. I've got a feeler gauge set a friend gave me. One of the gauges
was ground down so that the end was only 1/4 inch wide or so. When I
why, he explained that it could be used to start his bike in the event
he lost his real key. He claims that it will start any Harley ever
made. Another friend with a '88 Harley says that any implement of the
proper shape and stiffness will do (including properly aged road kill).

Of course, the consequences of getting caught screwing around with a
biker's bike are too graphic and chilling to discuss here.


Date:	Sat, 5 May 1990 23:03:00 -0400
From:	<MISS026@ecncdc.bitnet>
Subject: re^2: them locks are easy

> between that plastic cover and the metal...

I've got news for you -- that's basically all there is to it for just about
any car which has the "button" on the side of the door near the door handle...

I got locked out of my VW rabbit once, and since I didn't want to call a
locksmith (because I am one...and would never live the jeering down...:-> )
I just ripped the plastic $15.00 door handle off the door, and "poped" the
door open with my finger.

Also, listed in my "bible" of car opening how-to's is that very same method
of just putting something underneath the handle and feeling around with a
special tool till you hit the button linkage....'course a screwdriver works,
bbut it does scratch things up....

Moral: Get an alarm, and a pull out stereo, and maybe a car safe to store the
       pull out in...

Bye for now but not for long

Date:	Sat, 5 May 1990 23:27:00 -0400
From:	<MISS026@ecncdc.bitnet>
Subject: re: Late model mercedes locks...

> Ever see a key for a late model Mercedes?

yeah, and while they are "neat", they are a real pain to duplicate.  Where I
do some part-time locksmith work, I have grown to hate cutting those keys.  We
charge about $40.00 per key due to the fact that the blanks cost us about $2.00
each, and because it is very tricky.  You have to use both hands at once (one
handle controls the fwd/backward movement of the cutter, the other the
left/right...), and we always require that the car be outside our shop to
test the new key blank if the customer wants a guarantee....

> ...can set the alarm off by inserting the wrong key or trying to pick the
> lock.....

nope.....trying to pick it will get you basically nowhere, it's pretty
difficult and most locksmiths just drill it out, and shove a new lockset in
there....About the only thing that even resembles an "alarm" are cars equipped
with VATS, which simply checks that the value of the resistor pellet in a key
matches the authorized value in the VATS computer.  If so, and the key turns
the lock, then the car will start.  If not, and the key turns the lock, then
the car will not start, and the whole system is dead for 4 minutes.  This is
a pain for locksmiths trying to determine the proper vats key to use (there
are about 16 of them...), but at least it's a deterrant to crooks trying to
steal the car....

Bye for now but not for long

Date:	Tue, 3 Jul 1990 19:01:00 -0400
From:	*Hobbit* <>
Subject: Failed: attempt #1 at securing the vehicle

It would be REALLY GREAT if makers of "real" locks made drop-in replacements
for car doors, complete with reinforcing plates and good pin cylinders and a
mechanism that works such that once you turn the key a certain way the little
lever is locked toward one direction and won't move at all.  This would prevent
use of a slim-jim.  Unfortunately for the kind of car-door latch that doesn't
work when the lock is locked, it could also trap people inside the car.  Given
that one would have to explicitly lock the door from the outside with such a
rig, I think that I'd personally rather have that small risk than what, for
instance, I have now, which is a car that's frighteningly easy to break into.

I recently tore my door apart to investigate the possibility of doing this.
The cylinder has a limit stop which prevents motion much more than 60 degrees
either way from center, and this stop is somewhere underneath the stupid
press-fit front bezel, which if bent apart and then back again will probably
be rather weakened.  So for the moment I've given up on the idea of redoing it
so it could be turned 180 degrees and then the key pulled.  If someone knows of
a type of car cylinder whose limit stops are on the *back*, where I could
get at them and file them down, please holler, and I could go off to a junkyard
and find that kind of car.  Yes, even with all that glass sitting there
saying "break me", I still want to do this just for hack value.


Date:	Wed, 21 Nov 1990 12:31:00 -0500
From:	"John Schultz" <C491153@umcvmb.bitnet>
Subject: Same Key?

While perusing the archives for this list (I just recently subscribed)
I noticed a few messages about keys from one vehicle fitting another.
I ran into a situation like this a few months ago.  A friend and I
both have (well had, I sold mine) 1979 Mustangs.  It turns out that my
trunk key would open his trunk and vice versa.  I haven't tried the
same with my '83 yet.

John Schultz

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